twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 16 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

rec.crafts.metalworking@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: How many guns are out there...really?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/0a32d0ccda83a766?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:35 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

You think they will ever figure out that food comes from
farms? Naaaahhh....

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Jim Wilkins" <kb1dal@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11fd160c-c24e-4f20-a484-3c7c94909c06@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 30, 12:02 pm, rangerssuck <rangerss...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ...
> I just had a talk with a guy who owns one of the last
> remaining farms
> in New Paltz, NY. He said the neighbors give him poisonous
> looks,
> wishing he would sell so they could build more McMansions.

Might be interesting to survey those neighbors opinions on
the loss of
the rain forests.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:38 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Or, down the street, even.

I think that now days, you need to wear obviously a uniform
of any kind, and then the gun is OK.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Wes" <clutch@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:RST_m.426676$Xw3.75000@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com...

Ah for the good old days when you could walk in to work with
guns or gun parts and nobody
got excited.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to
protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at
home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

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TOPIC: WTB/Trade Nema 56 motor
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e50758f779f92915?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:40 am
From: Ignoramus11030

Also, if I can make a guess, your problem is not with the motor, but
with the pump or overpressure or something else. Something makes your
motor work too hard. Might be a recirculating valve.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:46 am
From: Cliff

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:40:39 -0600, Ignoramus11030
<ignoramus11030@NOSPAM.11030.invalid> wrote:

>Also, if I can make a guess, your problem is not with the motor, but
>with the pump or overpressure or something else. Something makes your
>motor work too hard. Might be a recirculating valve.
>
>i

Probably a good idea to find & fix the actual problem .... which
it seems he chose to ignore.
Perhaps he could hire someone that can fix machines
next time he has a problem with a simple one.
--
Cliff

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TOPIC: Saab Bites the dust
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ee5852c10a5b1ca9?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:46 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"oldjag" <msmith5242@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:79d235ad-f44f-446d-ad3a-6222c8ba7208@e20g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 31, 1:41 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "oldjag" <msmith5...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:a7aefb02-75c1-4cbb-9508-a9e21d09b7dc@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 25, 6:00 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Curly Surmudgeon" <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:hh2uvb$33p$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > > On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:06:25 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
> > > <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > >> "Curly Surmudgeon" <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:hgs6fp$rnq$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> > >>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:06:12 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
> > >>> <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > >>>> I don't know where you're going with this, Curly, but I'm getting
> > >>>> that
> > >>>> information from (my memory of) Taylor's _The Internal Combustion
> > >>>> Engine in Theory and Practice_, published decades ago by MIT Press,
> > >>>> and Thompson's _Fundamentals of Automotive Engine Balance_,
> > >>>> published
> > >>>> in the late '70s. Those books describe it as I have here, assuming
> > >>>> my
> > >>>> memory is correct, and I have never seen a book on engine design
> > >>>> that
> > >>>> contradicts it.
>
> > >>> I'm not arguing for argument's sake. Vibration analysis is a topic
> > >>> near and dear to my heart, I have two patents in the industry for
> > >>> dynamic balancers.
>
> > >>> I've approached the topic not from the mechanical engineering
> > >>> standpoint but from the view of an Electro-mechanical Engineer with
> > >>> a
> > >>> strong physics and software background also ex-auto/motorcycle
> > >>> racer.
>
> > >>> Most of my mechanical knowledge was picked up as needed, not in
> > >>> school,
> > >>> so you may have more book learning on engines but I suspect my
> > >>> experience in vibrational analysis is stronger. We come at the
> > >>> problem
> > >>> from different perspectives.
>
> > >>> I have little respect for reed-valve and 2-cycle engines. I have
> > >>> looked balance and vibration of 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines in a
> > >>> number
> > >>> of configurations but from the practical, not theoretical side. Now
> > >>> you've got me madly studying the theoretical.
>
> > >>> "Imbalance" has many meanings. My original question was from the
> > >>> practical, the Saab/Taunus V4 was as "balanced" as production
> > >>> tolerances permit. Your question pertained to design, not
> > >>> manufacturing. That was not clear at first.
>
> > >>> I interpreted your inquiry of "balance" as counterweight offset.
> > >>> Looking at the theoretical it's much more complex than primary or
> > >>> secondary "balance" in the theoretical sense. As Bottlebob's link
> > >>> shows, it is 3- dimensional vibrational vectors, harmonics plus
> > >>> pitch,
> > >>> yaw and roll too however that article doesn't even touch the valve
> > >>> train vibrational components...
>
> > >>> Fun topic.
>
> > >> Yeah, it is, if you really like engines. I think that Bottle's link,
> > >> combined with the history of engine design before we had much
> > >> computer
> > >> analysis, wraps up the subject pretty well.
>
> > > Actually I've had BB's link open for a week and occasionally read
> > > another
> > > 6-10 pages. Very well written to the point of over making the point
> > > but
> > > I like that it includes the mathematical model.
>
> > >> If you want to see some of the different angles that are taken on the
> > >> design side today, the SAE site has literally hundreds -- maybe
> > >> thousands -- of papers concerning engine balance. You can only read
> > >> the
> > >> abstracts without buying them but even they provide a lot of
> > >> information
> > >> you won't find elsewhere.
>
> > > Naaah, this one is quite sufficient. Maybe my threshold of vibration
> > > is
> > > lower but I don't find any production engine "unbalanced" or
> > > objectionable. As I said, I disconnected the counterbalance shaft on
> > > our
> > > old Volvo. I also drove V8's with high lift and long duration cams on
> > > a
> > > daily basis. Personally I think people want too much, if they want to
> > > ride on a couch take the train... Motor vehicles should be finicky,
> > > gives'm personality.
>
> > Then you would have loved my AC Aceca. Bristol engines were God's gift
> > to
> > people who like finicky engines. <g>
>
> > --
> > Ed Huntress
> >FWIW;
>
> >The Saab V4 I had, (AKA Ford Taunus), had a balance shaft and was
> >quite smooth running. The balance shaft stuck through the front timing
> >cover and was what drove the fan, alternator and water pump. The
> >crank did not extend through the cover at all, and the pulleys were
> >approx 1:1 in size as I recall. When I ran my first SCCA race in my
> >'67 E Jaguar, there was a fellow with a fairly well modified V4 Saab
> >Sonnet. Said he shifted it at 8500 rpm. Not bad for a pushrod motor
> >in 1980 that did not have the benefit of a lot of aftermarket parts.
>
> Wow. My '58 Alfa Romeo, only 1300 cc., hit 4,000 fpm piston speed at only
> 8200 rpm. That was considered the limit for a racing motor in those days
> but
> of course they go higher now. Still, 8500 on the V4 is pretty impressive.
>
>
>
> >Also I happen to have a 1990 5 cylinder Audi 200 Turbo Quattro. The
> >only clue that it's a 5 cyl. from inside is the exhaust note, which is
> >more horse than a 6 cyl. Vibration in the car is nil, partly because
> >the balance Audi struck is a good compromise, it's only 2.2L, and
> >partly the liquid filled motor mounts. This car is at 247K miles now,
> >was chipped to run 15psig boost at 100K miles and still uses very
> >little oil...just made a 6k round trip to Colorado, (mostly under 100
> >mph), and still at the full line. Amazing engine durability, of
> >course fresh Mobil 1 every 7k miles helps a lot.
>
> >My E type racecar has 4.2L six that is very smooth up to about 5500
> >RPM, beyond that it get a little rougher, (I have solid motor mounts
> >on the race car). The seven main crank which weighs about 75 lbs. on
> >this engine, is typically fitted with a larger damper and a very light
> >flywheel for racing. With the lighter flywheel, Carrilo rods, and
> >bigger damper the crank survives 7500 rpm without too much trouble.
> >With a 4.125 stroke I guess a I should be happy the vibration at 7500
> >is not worse than it is..
>
> Again, that's some rpm. I was reading an account of Jaguar at LeMans in
> the
> '50s a few years ago, and I remember that the redline on the LeMans
> D-types,
> in '55, was 6,000. That worked out to exactly 200 mph, which, said
> Jaguar's
> engineer/driver, it would just touch at the end of the Mulsanne Straight
> (there was no Ford Chicane in those days).
>
> Maybe you know -- I can't recall -- but the '55s might not even have been
> 3.8L. They might have been 3.4s.
>
> Anyway, at 7,500 with a 4.125 in. stroke, you're running at over 5,100 fpm
> piston speed. Things have improved a lot. I don't think I could have kept
> the rings in the pistons at that speed, in 1966. That was a Tom O'Brian
> motor, BTW, first-class stuff.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

>Yeah, I think the '55's were 3.4L. I don't have much trouble with the
>rings, I use gapless rings that are quite a bit narrower than stock
>and the pistons are gas ported on the top ring. The 13:1 pistons are
>set up a bit loose in the bore, rattle a little when cold, but once
>warmed up they are quiet. Love to know what the car would do on a
>long straight with taller gears. The 3:54 gears in the car give about
>170 mph @ 7200 with the tires I run. I though about destroking once to
>allow higher revs, but have been talked out of it as giving away too
>much displacement. In any case I knew one fellow running a 4.2L
>stroked to 5.0L which required among other things a 5 inch stroke..he
>only rev'ed it to 6800 though. Only reason I guess you can get away
>with this is the 7.125" long rod centers in Jag engines keeps the
>piston acceleration down. For survival at high RPM the cranks in
>these old engines have to be nitrided, have very straight crankpin and
>main journals, spot on bearing clearance and a decent dry sump system.
>The exhaust note on this car from the side pipes is really nice at
>7500, (good if sound control is on the infield side of the track:)

I'll bet it sounds great. You must be getting some serious horsepower. When
you mentioned 170 mph, I recalled that was the speed at which the D-types
tended to go weightless in the rear, which was the inspiration for the
vertical fin on the long-wheelbase model. I suppose you have some kind of
spoiler to keep the rear on the ground?

Also, you're talking about a '67 E-type and it sounds like you were racing
in the '80s. I remember a '67 that raced at Lime Rock Park sometime in the
mid-'80s. IIRC, the guy had blond hair. The car was red or maroon. (I was a
SCCA tech inspector in those days.)

Was that you, by any chance?

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Opinion of Ruger Mini 14 .223?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/48cf7025393f0d84?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:49 am
From: TwoGuns

On Dec 31, 3:10 am, Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:35:02 -0600, aasbe...@aol.com wrote:
> >First hand experience on accuracy? Operation?
>
> You are lucky to get 3" groups at 100 yrds. Operation of most of them is
> fair to reliable. Some of the newests ones are finished with sandpaper
> and concrete slabs for polishing media.
>
> Ive a 181 Series that has been reliable for ..humm...15 yrs..but..its
> not something Id take out to shoot anything smaller than bunnies at less
> than 100yrds..or JBTs out to 250yrds
>
> They Can...can..can be made into decent shooters..but by the time you
> stuff enough money in a gunsmiths pocket..you would have been better off
> buying a AR-15 of some sort.
>
> Minis are unfortunately..one of the few removable magazine semiauto
> "battle" rifles allowed in California...and fuck Bill Ruger.
>
> Shrug
>
> Gunner
>
> "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
> means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
> making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
> it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
> countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
> poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
> poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
> more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
> Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766

I used the mini-14 on the job for ten years. I spent a few days on the
range with the armory Sgt. sighting in weapons. We had a steady rest
set up and we shot a five shot group at 100 yards and another five
shot group at 150 yards. Usually we would be firing 30 weapons during
the day. One rifle in that 30 might shoot a one inch group at 100
yards but most all of them did good to hold between two to four inches
at a hundred yards. Close enough for government work I guess but I
would probably spend more than the original purchase price to get one
tuned up if I owned it.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:00 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Dec 31, 12:35 am, aasbe...@aol.com wrote:
> First hand experience on accuracy? Operation?

Unless you're stuck with one because of state laws, an AR will
outshoot it any day of the week for one that costs about the same.
Minute of washtub was the rule for a lot of the older ones. As far as
operation, they've always gone bang. At one time, Minis cost about
half what an AR did, Mini price has gone up, AR prices have stayed
about the same, lots more competition in the market. Check out
magazine prices, too.

Stan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Babin Machine... WTF?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/428940c628703c04?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 7:50 am
From: Honest A Babin

http://www.babinmachine.com/index.php?ABOUTUS

Honest A Babin

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:54 am
From: "Steve Lusardi"

Different guy. Our other friend is in Connecticut.
Steve

"Honest A Babin" <siralbabin@aol.com> wrote in message news:0a595520-0066-4790-9ee0-700f02d562b3@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.babinmachine.com/index.php?ABOUTUS
>
> Honest A Babin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is it? Set 317
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fedd0137d93a9232?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:01 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Rob H." <rhvp65@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hhhuqn0qrr@news4.newsguy.com...
> The New Years Eve edition of 'What is it?' has been posted:
>
> http://55tools.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Rob

1813 - Hydraulic lifter from an older (or older-design) engine.

--
Ed Huntress

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TOPIC: FOR SALE: Atlas QC54 Work in progress (almost finished)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9b5e7a07f2304c57?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:03 am
From: nytrillium

On Dec 31, 10:10 am, Bob Engelhardt <bobengelha...@comcast.net> wrote:
> nytrillium wrote:
>
> ... Make me a reasonalbe offer. ...
>
> For what it's worth - I pretty much never respond to ads/offers that
> don't have an asking price. I feel I'm wasting my time without knowing
> a price. I'm sure that others don't feel this way, but there are ones
> like me & you're eliminating us as potential customers.
>
> When it's "make an offer", I assume the seller is dreaming about an
> unrealistic price, especially in your case, with the work that you've
> put into it. You know its condition, you know the market in your area
> (if not, do some homework), & you know what you expect to get. Tell us
> - you'll scare off some, but they weren't customers in the first place.
>
> My 2 cents worth,
> Bob

I went out and took some pictures this morning. They are being
uploaded to photobucket as we speak. Those of you that emailed and
requested pictures I will send you the link ASAP. I do not want to
post the link here.

Just to add a few more things. I also have a taper attachment for
this lathe. Like i said the quickchange is disassembled and some
gears/bushings need to be put back in. Also, the entire gear train is
off the headstock. All of the gears are there and a couple just need
their bushings bored out to size. The change lever and yoke need to
be painted. The yoke had been brazed by a previous owner because it
had cracked.

As for an asking price. I would really like to get $1500 for it. If
that is unreasonable i'm sure someone will tell me.

I base this on what I saw when i first started this project. At that
time there were tons of these machines on ebay in varous states of
(dis)repair. The prices ranged anywhere from $200 for one with nothing
included in crappy shape to $1500 with lots of tooling and
accessories. That being said, browsing ebay now, there are only a
handful of machines (if that) for sale. There are none of the QC54's
like this one. Interpret that as you will but I think that $1500 is a
good starting point considering the included accessories and the
amount of work that has been put into this machine.

Thanks,
Brian

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Seen the "revolution billboard" in Missouri on I-70?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/41eadfaf8672675b?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:07 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

<wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:8sgpj55iv6a1vr5fmntl7pp35t257r19lp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:56:08 -0800, Gunner Asch
> <gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>> My Engineering Degree is of
>>slightly...slightly more value but these days during the Democrat caused
>>Great Depression Part Deux..isnt of much more value.
>>
>>Shrug
>
> Engineering degree? The mind boggles. Can it get any funnier? I hope
> so!
>
> Wayne

Omigod. I plonked Gunner too soon. I looks like the fun is just beginning.
<g>

Ask him where he got his degree in economics, too. Or did he have a dual
major?

--
Ed Huntress

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:49 am
From: Dan

Ed Huntress wrote:
> <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
> news:8sgpj55iv6a1vr5fmntl7pp35t257r19lp@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:56:08 -0800, Gunner Asch
>> <gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>
>>> My Engineering Degree is of
>>> slightly...slightly more value but these days during the Democrat caused
>>> Great Depression Part Deux..isnt of much more value.
>>>
>>> Shrug
>> Engineering degree? The mind boggles. Can it get any funnier? I hope
>> so!
>>
>> Wayne
>
> Omigod. I plonked Gunner too soon. I looks like the fun is just beginning.
> <g>
>
> Ask him where he got his degree in economics, too. Or did he have a dual
> major?
>

In his fantasy world, that would be "Duel Major..."

Dan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: On topic, We have rotation!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c0211c97fa4177ec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:28 am
From: Bruce L. Bergman

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 03:02:01 +0000, Mark Rand
<randm@internettie.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:44:38 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
><lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Bruce L. Bergman <bruceNOSPAMbergman@gmail.com> fired this volley in
>>news:o92oj51tt047g5pq67v56gbs2ar8pp5qhb@4ax.com:
>>
>>> Except all I can get at 21KFT out from the CO is 384K down, 128K up,
>>> and at&t won't let anyone else use their UVerse Remote DSLAM's.
>>
>>DSL won't work at all over copper at that distance. You may be 21Kft from
>>the CO, but you're less than 8K feet from the local RT. Since most digital
>>services are on fiber from the CO to the RT, that distance doesn't matter
>>much. What matters most is how many feet you are from the RT, what shape
>>your copper media is in (which you cannot control), and how many other
>>subscribers are sharing the RT (which divides available bandwidth among
>>them).
>>
>>LLoyd
>
>
>Yes it does. I was at a slightly greater distance than that and got 2mb/S
>down/500kb/S up until converting back to cable.
>
>
>Mark Rand
>RTFM

Lloyd, the hard limit is supposed to be 22,000 feet, and I"m
'officially' at 21Kft and change. If you measure physically it's a
lot less straight-line - but on a diagonal to the street grid. They
must have made a few extra zigs and zags actually getting here.

The DSL works, but it wheezes and sputters, they said even at 384/128
there are more resets and bad frames than they would like to see. But
as we all know, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Lived here 38 years, and there are no RSU's or RLU's or Concentrators
other electronics between here and the CO - we were on Crossbar
(818-883) when we moved in. Trust me, I was a GTE Construction Cable
Splicer and COE Construction Installer, I think I would have noticed
them digging the big hole for a Controlled Environment Vault, and the
access hatch is unmistakable...

at&t installed a RSU out of Canoga Park for the folks south of the
US-101 around the Motion Picture Hospital, and in a very subtle move
forced everyone to change their phones to 818-222 and 818-223

--<< Bruce >>--

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Obama cant even get a charter school named after him....
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/bea23129fb4afd0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:47 am
From: Dan

Gunner Asch wrote:
> http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/80382197.html
>
> One of the reasons I live here....
>
>
>
> KHSD votes against charter school named in honor of Obama
>
> Story Updated: Dec 30, 2009 at 6:17 PM PST
> By Anthony Bailey, Eyewitness News
>
> BAKERSFIELD, Calif. -- In a special session Wednesday morning, the Kern
> High School District board voted down a petition to bring a charter
> school to Bakersfield named in honor of President Barack Obama.
>
> Board members who voted unanimously cited a very lackluster proposal
> riddled with error and typos highlighted by incorrect listing of the
> district name and a first paragraph that was addressed to Escondido
> schools.
>
> Neighbors voiced mixed reactions.
>
> "It's going to take a village," said supporter Jan Flowery, "with so
> many dropouts."
>
> Resident Susan Wooden had additional questions.
>
> "With so many financial problems, how will the school get paid for?"
> asked Wooden.
>
> Gale Bunding wasn't against the school but didn't want the school named
> after the president.
>
> "How can we name the school after someone who is anti-American," said
> Bunding.
>
> Listening attentively at the meeting was another group hopeful to get a
> charter school approved in Greenfield. Damon Smothers is part of a group
> working on getting approval for Smothers Academy.
>
> The family psychologist currently runs an educational center in central
> Bakersfield that offers tutoring and counseling.
>
> "I think the community needs it. I want kids to know they can do it,"
> said Smothers.
>
> Smothers says he is deeply rooted in the community, citing a little
> league youth football team made up youth that use the center's services.
>
> According to Superintendent Chris Crawford with the Greenfield School,
> Smothers has met the requirements for the number of teachers and the
> enrollment requirements of 100 interested students.
>
>
> Notice the part about
>
> "Very lackluster proposal riddled with error and typos "
>
>
> Seems Obama supporters are as stupid as a bag of dog shit.
>
> <VBG>

Yawn, as stupid as someone who writes a misleading and inaccurate
Subject line? I mean, how hard is THAT???

I mean, have YOU ever tried to get a Charter School together, little boy?

Stupid shit...

Dan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 9:35 am
From: Deucalion

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:16:46 -0800, Gunner Asch
<gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote:

>http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/80382197.html
>
>One of the reasons I live here....
>
>
>
>KHSD votes against charter school named in honor of Obama
>
>Story Updated: Dec 30, 2009 at 6:17 PM PST
>By Anthony Bailey, Eyewitness News
>
>BAKERSFIELD, Calif. -- In a special session Wednesday morning, the Kern
>High School District board voted down a petition to bring a charter
>school to Bakersfield named in honor of President Barack Obama.
>
>Board members who voted unanimously cited a very lackluster proposal
>riddled with error and typos highlighted by incorrect listing of the
>district name and a first paragraph that was addressed to Escondido
>schools.
>
>Neighbors voiced mixed reactions.
>
>"It's going to take a village," said supporter Jan Flowery, "with so
>many dropouts."
>
>Resident Susan Wooden had additional questions.
>
>"With so many financial problems, how will the school get paid for?"
>asked Wooden.
>
>Gale Bunding wasn't against the school but didn't want the school named
>after the president.
>
>"How can we name the school after someone who is anti-American," said
>Bunding.
>
>Listening attentively at the meeting was another group hopeful to get a
>charter school approved in Greenfield. Damon Smothers is part of a group
>working on getting approval for Smothers Academy.
>
>The family psychologist currently runs an educational center in central
>Bakersfield that offers tutoring and counseling.
>
>"I think the community needs it. I want kids to know they can do it,"
>said Smothers.
>
>Smothers says he is deeply rooted in the community, citing a little
>league youth football team made up youth that use the center's services.
>
>According to Superintendent Chris Crawford with the Greenfield School,
>Smothers has met the requirements for the number of teachers and the
>enrollment requirements of 100 interested students.
>
>
>Notice the part about
>
>"Very lackluster proposal riddled with error and typos "
>
>
>Seems Obama supporters are as stupid as a bag of dog shit.
>
><VBG>
>
>
>Gunner

No, it looks like you and your neighbors are butt stupid and happy
that way. Why would they need a school when they have the likes of
you and the white power groups to educate them in the ways of life?

I guess that the phrase "stupid is as stupid does" has some truth to
it afterall.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT "move your money" was Re: A One-Trick Pony?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/7f184734440e6ec5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:43 am
From: F. George McDuffee

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:21:52 -0600, "William Wixon"
<wwixon@frontiernet.net> wrote:

>there was a blurb on teh news tonight about a movement to "move your money"
>out of BIG banks into smaller community banks. i'm not well informed about
>this but it seems like a good idea to me. "starve the cancer within us".
>
>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/move-your-money-a-new-yea_b_406022.html
>
>b.w.
>
================
For some info on how this was circumvented before it even started
see http://www.sacbee.com/business/story/2429569.html
NEW YORK – When financial titan Goldman Sachs joined some of its
Wall Street rivals in late 2005 in secretly packaging a new breed
of offshore securities, it gave prospective investors little hint
that many of the deals were so risky that investors could end up
losing hundreds of millions of dollars on them.

McClatchy has obtained previously undisclosed documents that
provide a closer look at the shadowy $1.3 trillion market since
2002 for complex offshore deals, which Chicago financial
consultant and frequent Goldman critic Janet Tavakoli said at
times met "every definition of a Ponzi scheme."
<snip>
---------------
Unka George

(George McDuffee)

The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Time to get tougher
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/857dcab3153330a8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:52 am
From: Dan

Strabo wrote:
> Scout wrote:
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in message
>>> news:CarZm.93914$We2.1563@newsfe09.iad...
>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>> "Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hh3rq5$4ej$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>>>>>>>>> Hawke
>>>>>>>> Ignorant doofus.
>>>>>>>> This country was never a democracy. Was and is a Representative
>>>>>>>> Republic.
>>>>>>> And how is that different from a representative democracy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't try to make a fool of the boy with your trick questions, Ed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hawke
>>>>> Golly, I'm just asking a simple question. They say there's a
>>>>> difference. They should be able to tell us what the difference is,
>>>>> wouldn't you say?
>>>> I can tell you.
>>>>
>>>> Are you listening.
>>>>
>>>> Depends on WHOM is being represented.
>>>>
>>>> In the example I'm using let's say that only the clergy are
>>>> represented because this is a Theocracy.
>>>>
>>>> It's certainly a republic.
>>> Not in the sense of "res publica," the people's thing. That would be
>>> a type of pure oligarchy, not a republic.
>>
>> It would be a republic, since the head of state is elected. Further,
>> who the people are all depends on how you define the term, doesn't it?
>>
>> In this case the people would be the clergy. The government is their
>> thing. That there are others is irrelevent.
>>
>>
>>>> However, is it a representative democracy?
>>>>
>>>> So yes, there ARE differences.
>>> There can be, but you haven't hit it yet. And the term as it's
>>> applied to the US clearly is not an oligarchy, so your theocracy
>>> example is useless.
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> What is the Electorial College then?
>>
>> Can you say O-L-I-G-A-R-C-H-Y?
>>
>> Because it is they who elect the President and most of them can vote
>> in any manner they chose.
>>
>> That they are elected to that position doesn't alter what they are,
>> anymore than if in the above example the clery were elected to that
>> position. Because once so elected they do as THEY chose.
>>
>> Oligarchy.
>>
>> That what it means.
>>
>
> What you say is accurate except for oligarchy.
>
> Political party dominance is a recent phenomena. The pledge given by
> electors to a party is not enforcible.
>
> The electors have the discretion to choose as they wish though in
> practice the electors vote for the candidate that wins the most votes
> in their respective states.
>
> By revoking the Federal 17th A. and subduing political parties, the
> people of the various states can again call the shots.

Can you please make up your mind?

Do you want a representative republic or a direct democracy. You argue
for and against both of them so often, my head is spinning...

Dan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 9:14 am
From: Deucalion

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 05:15:14 -0800, Gunner Asch
<gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 05:37:28 -0500, Strabo <strabo@flashlight.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "Scout" <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in message
>>> news:CarZm.93914$We2.1563@newsfe09.iad...
>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>> "Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hh3rq5$4ej$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>>>>>>>>> Hawke
>>>>>>>> Ignorant doofus.
>>>>>>>> This country was never a democracy. Was and is a Representative
>>>>>>>> Republic.
>>>>>>> And how is that different from a representative democracy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't try to make a fool of the boy with your trick questions, Ed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hawke
>>>>> Golly, I'm just asking a simple question. They say there's a
>>>>> difference. They should be able to tell us what the difference is,
>>>>> wouldn't you say?
>>>> I can tell you.
>>>>
>>>> Are you listening.
>>>>
>>>> Depends on WHOM is being represented.
>>>>
>>>> In the example I'm using let's say that only the clergy are represented
>>>> because this is a Theocracy.
>>>>
>>>> It's certainly a republic.
>>>
>>> Not in the sense of "res publica," the people's thing. That would be a type
>>> of pure oligarchy, not a republic.
>>>
>>
>>----------
>>
>>Article IV
>>
>>Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this
>>union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them
>>against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the
>>executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic
>>violence.
>>----------
>>
>>It IS the people's thing. That's the representative part.
>>
>>It is a republican thing. That's the form.
>>
>>The word 'democracy' was intentionally avoided in the Constitution
>>per consensus that the United States should not be construed to be
>>a democracy.
>>
>>The proper appellation is 'Constitutional Republic.'
>>
>>
>>--------------
>>
>> From the War Department, 1928
>>
>>The difference between a republic and a democracy was once widely
>>understood in America. The U.S. War Department (superseded by the
>>Department of Defense) taught that difference in a training manual
>>(No. 2000-25) published on November 30, 1928. This official U.S.
>>government document, used at the time for the training of American
>>military personnel, said of democracy:
>>
>>"A government of the masses."
>>
>>"Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of
>>'direct' expression."
>>
>>"Results in mobocracy."
>>
>>"Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property
>>rights."
>>
>>"Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,
>>whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion,
>>prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences."
>>
>>"Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy."
>>
>>It went on to state: "Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the
>>strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed
>>principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form
>>of government. They 'made a very marked distinction between a republic
>>and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had
>>founded a republic.' "
>
>
>Isnt it absolutely fascinating that our PoliSigh grad Parakeet..simply
>cannot understand what the devil we are talking about.
>
>Im not sure if the poor sod is actually that stupid, or really didnt
>graduate from anything beyond the 8th grade.
>
>Pitiful actually..stunningly pitiful
>
>But then...he is typical of the average Leftard.
>
>Dumb as a box of rocks and as pigheaded as..well...shrug
>
>A leftard
>
>
>
>Gunner

Yet, were it not for their kind, you would be growing mold in a
casket.

>
>"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
>means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
>making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
>it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
>countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
>poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
>poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
>more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
>Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766

That really is an incongruent sig for someone like yourself.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Palin Wins Inagural
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/0ea290197ad1982a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:44 am
From: Deucalion

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 05:56:23 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
<CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:23:31 -0500, Deucalion <someone@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> Electricity here in NC is still relatively cheap. My monthly electric
>> bill doesn't run hundreds of dollars, so saving hundreds of dollars
>> isn't in my immediate future. The home is a brick ranch and faces
>> roughly east/west. The south side has heavy shade or I would look at
>> adding a passive solar collector to that wall of the house.
>>
>> As I see it, I have two options. I can add solar space heating to the
>> walls facing east and west. This will increase my expense and delay
>> potential break even times. Or, I can build an outbuilding near the
>> house with one of the long walls facing South and use active solar to
>> pump hot water into the house using a fan/heat exchanger.
>
>Think water instead of brick, see below.

Using the brick walls for heat storage is only for the passive solar
space heater designs. The ones that I'm looking at could be modified
to mount directly on the brick walls (using the brick as the back of
the unit).

>> The solar space heaters are the cheapest route to go as I may be able to
>> find the materials used and I have a decent woodworking shop set up.
>> The active solar from an outbuilding is the most efficient. I can use
>> the thermal mass of the bricks to hold some minimal amount of heat for
>> the space heaters, which would add some efficiency. I may look at roof
>> mounted solar panels when I replace the roof. It's at that "in between"
>> stage where it doesn't need replacement yet, but it may not stand up to
>> the stress of construction up there.
>
>Water has a _much_ higher thermal mass than brick.
>
>I once did a control system which froze a tank of water after midnight
>when electricity was cheap then used this to cool homes/offices during
>the day when electricity is expensive. (California) You'd just use the
>reverse process, absorb heat during the day and release at night. Best
>of all is that you can use extra reflectors to magnify the effective
>surface area. A simple bi-metallic thermal switch can turn on a pump to
>circulate hot water into the tank and push cold out the bottom to be
>heated. At night you'd need a radiator inside to extract heat from using
>a fan and pump. Common technology and imminently home-dooable.

If I decide to build the small outbuilding an go that route, I will be
using water as the storage and transfer medium using the system that
you described. The advantages of the space heater concept is that
they are much cheaper to build. The design requires only one moving
part and it doesn't depend on electricity. The disadvantages are that
it only works during the sunlight hours except for what little heat I
can store in the bricks. Convection is used to move the air.

The outbuilding idea uses your concept of water to store the heat and
transfer it from the building to the house using a heat exchanger
(radiator) and fan inside the house as the actual heater. The main
disadvantages are higher expense, more moving parts, and reliance on
electricity. Granted I could use a battery bank, controller, and
solar electric panel to power it.

The main advantages are enhanced heat storage and the ability to
provide automatic heat control. Plus, I wouldn't have to physically
disconnect it from the house during the warm months to avoid
overheating.

The reason for using the outbuilding is to get the orientation right,
so I can maximize available sunlight. Also, it will be where the
majority if the system is stored. It will provide the added benefit
of giving me a third outbuilding which I can use as another shop.

>
>> Since you have some experience with this, can you think of any other
>> options? Bear in mind that I live in the south where we only have a
>> couple of really cold months (Jan/Feb). The shade on the south side of
>> the house is really a benefit for the majority of the year.
>
>Plant deciduous trees on the South side. Blocks sun in the summer and
>hits the house in winter. Fruitless mulberry grow fast and have great
>shade.

The trees shading the south facing wall of the house are not mine.
They are my neighbors. While they are deciduous, they still keep it
too shaded. Placing the building on the clear north side with the
panels facing south will get around that though.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:51 am
From: Deucalion

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:30:11 -0700, wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:23:31 -0500, Deucalion <someone@nowhere.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Electricity here in NC is still relatively cheap. My monthly electric
>>bill doesn't run hundreds of dollars, so saving hundreds of dollars
>>isn't in my immediate future.
>
>In order to save hundreds I had to start from scratch. No more fees
>for homeowner association fees, water co-op, sewage, or trash
>collection. No electric or gas bill. Obviously there's no free lunch,
>but the overall savings are impressive.
>
>>The home is a brick ranch and faces
>>roughly east/west. The south side has heavy shade or I would look at
>>adding a passive solar collector to that wall of the house.
>>
>>As I see it, I have two options. I can add solar space heating to the
>>walls facing east and west. This will increase my expense and delay
>>potential break even times. Or, I can build an outbuilding near the
>>house with one of the long walls facing South and use active solar to
>>pump hot water into the house using a fan/heat exchanger.
>>
>>The solar space heaters are the cheapest route to go as I may be able
>>to find the materials used and I have a decent woodworking shop set
>>up. The active solar from an outbuilding is the most efficient. I
>>can use the thermal mass of the bricks to hold some minimal amount of
>>heat for the space heaters, which would add some efficiency. I may
>>look at roof mounted solar panels when I replace the roof. It's at
>>that "in between" stage where it doesn't need replacement yet, but it
>>may not stand up to the stress of construction up there.
>
>Sounds like you already have lots of ideas. Offhand, the only thing
>that comes to mind is that one doesn't have to mount solar collectors
>on buildings. For example, all of our PV is pole-mounted on trackers.
>I've seen some mounts that reach above trees. You can do the same
>thing with reflectors. Lots of info here
>http://www.redrok.com/concept.htm, including an affordable controller
>http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x. Scroll down for many pics of
>DIY tracking efforts.
>
>Here's one of my own, a single axis PV tracker I scratch-built on a
>budget for a friend. http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tracker.htm It
>utilizes the above controller, and a linear actuator typical of the
>old backyard satellite dishes. The object of the design was to keep
>the pivot points as close to the CG as possible so that no
>counterweighting was required, even with the poor leverage angles that
>come from trying to get maximum motion from a simple actuator.
>
>Wayne

Thanks. I'll take a look at the sites. What I'm looking at right now
is exclusively for space heating. PV may be in the distant future
though and I'm always looking at ways to minimize dependence on the
grid and saving a little money eventually. I'm still hoping that
perhaps Obama's solar incentives will make solar PV less expensive and
give it a shorter ROI.

I figure that my main electric expenses are heating, cooling and hot
water. The outbuilding idea would take care of those. Cooling in the
southeast pretty much requires electricity for right now. I already
have deciduous trees on the south, east, and west of the house.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A holiday visit project
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/bc25feb7983514df?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 8:50 am
From: Bruce L. Bergman

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:54:01 -0500, Gerald Miller
<grmiller@rogers.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:50:09 -0800 (PST), "Denis G."
><guillemd@gis.net> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 29, 11:51�pm, Don Foreman <dfore...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net>
>>wrote:
>>> A bit of metal content: �http://members.goldengate.net/dforeman/chandelier/
>>
>>Nice work! Not many metalworkers use nail polish. <g>
>But a good number of heavy equipment operators do!
>Gerry :-)}
>London, Canada

That's been happening for decades - I seem to recall stories from the
late 1940's about a stacked babe in a hot-pink Bullocks Wilshire
designer raincoat popping out of a wrecker, pulling on work gloves,
and hauling off the disabled car.

Quite often there were /very/ chauvinistic comments made about how
this is no job for a lady, and said hot babe would offer to leave and
send out "a man" to do the work in a few hours - but cooler heads
usually prevailed...

(Mom was half-owner of the garage, and National Auto Club had time
limits you had to meet or they cancelled the franchise. If nobody
else was available to drive, she'd leave the bookkeeping for later,
grab her coat and the keys to the spare wrecker, and get to work.)

Good night Mrs. Bergman, Wherever you are...

--<< Bruce >>--

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How does a Palin/Beck ticket sound?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/3a79bd6938f10f4d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 9:18 am
From: Jim Alder

Aratzio <a6ahlyv02@sneakemail.com> wrote in
news:59boj5lsqkipcnqog6c46o353vshurb1qn@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:47:42 -0600, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
> Jim Alder <jimalder@ssnet.com> got double secret probation for
> writing:
>
>>Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote in
>>news:ogvnj55h3mgccvf3qsoodq7jlr03gnpv8n@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:13:17 -0600, Fred Hall <fkhall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I thought wingnuts were supposed to all be tough guys with the courage
>>>>>of their convictions. Each able to withstand the slings and arrows of the
>>>>>moderates and liberals.
>>>>
>>>>Regardless of one's political spectrum leanings, when one can't refute
>>>>facts, well, they do what Addled Jimmy did
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to
>>> develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
>>> That is our bottom line."
>>> --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
>>>
>>> "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
>>> We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass
>>> destruction program."
>>> --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
>>>
>>> "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great
>>> deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use
>>> nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the
>>> greatest security threat we face."
>>> --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
>>>
>>> "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten
>>> times since 1983."
>>> --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
>>>
>>> "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the
>>> U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if
>>> appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond
>>> effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of
>>> mass destruction programs."
>>> Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
>>> -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others,
>>> Oct. 9, 1998
>>>
>>> "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass
>>> destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and
>>> he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
>>> -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
>>>
>>> "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass
>>> destruction and palaces for his cronies."
>>> -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
>>>
>>> "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons
>>> programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear
>>> programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In
>>> addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless
>>> using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range
>>> missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
>>> Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
>>> -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001
>>>
>>> "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a
>>> threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the
>>> mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass
>>> destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
>>> -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
>>>
>>> "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical
>>> weapons throughout his country."
>>> -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
>>>
>>> "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to
>>> deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam
>>> is in power."
>>> -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
>>>
>>> "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and
>>> developing weapons of mass destruction."
>>> -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
>>>
>>> "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
>>> confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
>>> biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to
>>> build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence
>>> reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
>>> -- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
>>>
>>> "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the
>>> authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein
>>> because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction
>>> in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
>>> -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
>>>
>>> "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working
>>> aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear
>>> weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have
>>> always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of
>>> weapons of mass destruction."
>>> -- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
>>>
>>> "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years,
every
>>> significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his
>>> chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has
>>> refused to do" -- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
>>>
>>> "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show
>>> that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
>>> weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
>>> He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including
>>> al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked,
>>> Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological
>>> and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
>>> -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
>>>
>>> "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that
>>> Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing
>>> capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
>>> -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
>>>
>>> "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
>>> murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
>>> particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
>>> miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
>>> continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
>>> ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is
>>> real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
>>
>> As you've already no doubt noticed, these have little effect. Ratzo is
>>using a binary approach to this 'discussion'. By that I mean he has two
>>arguments going, and when you present evidence against one, he says it is
NOT
>>evidence agaisnt the other.
>
> Jim, I will state again, your delusion that the WMD are in Iran is not
> evidence, no matter how many times the voices claim they know.

I didn't say it was evidence. I said it was a fact.

1. I never said I was going to prove it.
2. I am not going to prove it.
3. I don't care about your fucking opinion.

> 1. State you evidence that Saddam had the WMD moved to Iran.
> 2. State your evidence that the WMD existed after 1998.
> 3. State your evidence that the Office of Special Plans was engaged in
> proper intelligence vetting.
>
>
>>You present arguments against his claim that Bush
>>lied about WMDs being in Iraq. He calls it a non sequitur because he is
>>applying it to a different argument.
>
> I never said any of the sort, Addled. I stated quite unequicovally
> that the administration lied. Not, Dubya. He is far too stupid to have
> come up with something like the Iraq war.

You're far too stupid to follow a conversation, let alone judge a
president.

>> Or maybe he's just a goddamned idiot.
>
> We know your hero Shrub is.
>
>>
>> Of course, at this point he and Hall are both just falling back on the
>>Left's main tactic, that being dismissing you with ridicule.
>>
> Well, you do make that part pretty easy.

It's always easy. All you have to do is make shit up, then repeat the lie
incessantly.

> Now about that fear of CAKE you have?

See? Easy. And easy is the Liberal way.

Now fuck off.

--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"

I said "Who in the hell did you think it was?"

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 9:21 am
From: Jim Alder

Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote in
news:ktboj517linp357lo2fr6887hnml3e3qsf@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:47:42 -0600, Jim Alder <jimalder@ssnet.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
>>> murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
>>> particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
>>> miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
>>> continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
>>> ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is
>>> real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
>>
>> As you've already no doubt noticed, these have little effect. Ratzo is
>>using a binary approach to this 'discussion'. By that I mean he has two
>>arguments going, and when you present evidence against one, he says it is
NOT
>>evidence agaisnt the other. You present arguments against his claim that
Bush
>>lied about WMDs being in Iraq. He calls it a non sequitur because he is
>>applying it to a different argument.
>>
>> Or maybe he's just goddamned idiot.
>>
>> Of course, at this point he and Hall are both just falling back on the
>>Left's main tactic, that being dismissing you with ridicule.
>
>
> No problem..Ive seen both of them shitting in their hats for years..so
> its not surprising that they think they are on top of the world.
>
> Its going to be interesting to hear about how they died during the Great
> Cull.

Really? I can already tell you how. Crying and begging, while offering to
sell the other guy out.

--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"

I said "Who in the hell did you think it was?"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Limbaugh survives heart attack
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c80df044a3841b8c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 31 2009 9:33 am
From: US_Army_Nutcase

On Dec 31, 5:26 am, burr-headed fat friend
<geriatric.delinqu...@alt.conspiracy.submissive.Danish-pastry> wrote:
> Cliff <Clhuprichguessw...@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote:
> > Limbaugh survives heart attack
>
> Pity.

The news that Karl was getting a divorce sent Limbo into a Viagra-
induced tizzy.

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Thursday, December 31, 2009

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 16 topics - digest

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