twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 13 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Obamas passport?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ae3d1d5305329f4c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 8 2009 11:38 pm
From: pyotr filipivich

Let the Record show that RBnDFW <burkheimer@gmail.com> on or about
Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:57:45 -0600 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Let the Record show that RBnDFW <burkheimer@gmail.com> on or about
>> Fri, 04 Dec 2009 09:57:23 -0600 did write/type or cause to appear in
>> rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:30:37 -0600, aarcuda69062
>>>> <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are some who've openly admitted that they fear the shitstorm that
>>>>> would result if Obama were removed from office for usurping the
>>>>> presidency. They are right of course, we saw the results in LA some
>>>>> years back, just multiply it 10,000 fold
>>>>
>>>> Huh? What did I forget after I had the stroke? LA?
>>> OJ riots
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah, I remember that movie. "Based" on a true story, OJ is
>> this football player who gets a batch of steroids contaminated with
>> some experimental growth hormones, gained super strength, but when
>> angered turned brown and struck out violently. I think the ending
>> (Of him on top of the US Bank Tower in Los Angeles, swatting at Apache
>> helicopters) was just a bit over the top, and too derivative of the
>> original King Kong. But - that's Hollywood for you.
>
>"I'll have some of whatever he's having"

Loose grasp of the English Language.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: AGW - to what depths will those crooks sink?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/bc2d5980e3d42eff?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 12:28 am
From: Bill Sloman

On Dec 9, 3:16 am, Steve Ackman <st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com>
wrote:
> In <36fc3760-61f5-4a47-b970-c56e51c1e...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> on Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:44:17 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman,
>
>
>
>
>
> bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 10:43 pm, Rich Grise <richgr...@example.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:15:49 -0700, Steve Ackman wrote:
> >> > Mon, 7 Dec 2009 01:16:53 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman, bill.slo...@ieee.org
> >> >> On Dec 7, 3:39 am, Rich Grise <richgr...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >> >>> In a way, there's an experiment going on right now - CO2 levels are
> >> >>> increasing, and the temperature isn't.
>
> >> >> Trust Rich to take the short term view - in the short term the world
> >> >> isn't warming up and he hasn't developed lung cancer.
>
> >> > "But doctor, chemotherapy isn't indicated at all.
> >> > The patient doesn't even have cancer."
>
> >> > "But he will, nurse, start the chemo NOW!"
>
> > Not a particularly apt analogy,
>
> It was YOUR analogy.

The analogy you are making is with a "patient who doesn't even have
cancer". The climatologists - who are the closest proxy to medical
practitioners in this particular scene - have excellent evidence to
demonstrate that the earth is already suffering from anthropogenic
global warming, and want to start treatment now, advocating a
procedure that has a good chance of complete success, if started early
enough.

You are in the position of a quacksalver who is claiming that -
contrary to the professional advice - the patient doesn't really have
cancer at all, and can go on smoking to their heart's content.
Attractive advice for the patient in the short term, but lethal in the
long run.

So while you may be playing with what was originally my analogy, your
variation falsifies one of the more important facts of the situation,
which is that the people who deny the existence of anthropogenic
global warming don't base their arguments on sound scientific
evidence, but rather claim that the scientific evidence for
anthropogenic global warming is not to be trusted, without having any
coherence evidence of their own to put in its place.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 3:16 am
From: "JosephKK"

On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:16:47 +0000, John Devereux
<john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:

>"JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:21:48 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>> <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Dec 4, 12:04 pm, John Devereux <j...@devereux.me.uk> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>> I don't have the time to go deeply enough into AGW to have an
>>>> independently informed opinion. What I do note is that it is the
>>>> "supporters" that tend keep coming back with numbers, detailed evidence,
>>>> rational arguments. And it is the "deniers" who tend to keep coming back
>>>> with nothing but name calling and the same empty arguments - the same
>>>> ones refuted here again and again.
>>>
>>>I note that trend too.
>>>
>>>It is telltale sign of the "deniers" have nothing.
>>>
>>>TMT
>>
>> Well this is just one handy example plot:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok-ice-core-petit.png
>>
>> Please pay attention that is plotted in the first quadrant instead of
>> the fourth quadrant. It is _CLEARLY_ labeled that going left to right
>> is going into the past. A correct plot would mirror it on the
>> vertical axis so that the past is to the left. Then proper temporal
>> conclusions could be drawn.
>
>I don't understand what you are complaining about here. As you say it is
>clearly labelled so what is the problem?

The way that the curves are mishandled by Algor in his book, "An
inconvenient truth", for one. Study it, you can discover what i am
talking about.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 3:39 am
From: "JosephKK"

On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 15:25:39 -0800, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net>
wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 15:19:47 -0800, JosephKK wrote:
>>>
>> The other thing i find weird about smokers, is that the vast majority of
>> fire related death is from smoke inhalation. Maybe in spite of all
>> evidence to the contrary they believe that they can develop an immunity to
>> it.
>
>OK, wanna take the Garage Test?
>
>And there's a HELL of a lot of difference between cigarette smoke and
>smoke from a house fire.
>
>Cheers!
>Rich

For the Garage Test to be properly fair, the internal combustion
engine (or other smoke and CO source) should emit the same amount of
CO and particulates into the air per unit time as your tobacco product
of choice.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 4:01 am
From: "JosephKK"

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:16:06 -0700, Steve Ackman
<steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> wrote:

>In <36fc3760-61f5-4a47-b970-c56e51c1e327@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>on Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:44:17 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman,
>bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 10:43 pm, Rich Grise <richgr...@example.net> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:15:49 -0700, Steve Ackman wrote:
>>> > Mon, 7 Dec 2009 01:16:53 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman, bill.slo...@ieee.org
>>> >> On Dec 7, 3:39 am, Rich Grise <richgr...@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> In a way, there's an experiment going on right now - CO2 levels are
>>> >>> increasing, and the temperature isn't.
>>>
>>> >> Trust Rich to take the short term view - in the short term the world
>>> >> isn't warming up and he hasn't developed lung cancer.
>>>

Note the added ">"

>>> > "But doctor, chemotherapy isn't indicated at all.
>>> > The patient doesn't even have cancer."
>>>
>>> > "But he will, nurse, start the chemo NOW!"
>>

Note the two level change.

>> Not a particularly apt analogy,
>
> It was YOUR analogy.
>
><snip>

Your editing trick did not survive verification. We obviously need to
start the chemo on you.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:10 am
From: Raveninghorde

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:46:06 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Dec 7, 12:52 pm, Raveninghorde <raveninghorde@invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 17:35:43 -0800, Hawke
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>> >Raveninghorde wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:17:38 -0800, Hawke
>> >> <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>> Paul Keinanen wrote:
>> >>>> On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:50:25 -0800, Hawke
>> >>>> <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I agree with you this once and I will trust a climate scientist:
>>
>> /quotes
>>
>> and hearing Bradley's follow-up talk on how everybody but him has
>> fucked up in reconstructing past NH temperatures over the past 1000
>> years (this is a bit of an overstatement on my part I must admit, but
>> his air of papal infallibility is really quite nauseating at times)
>>
>> Without trying to prejudice this work, but also because of what I
>> almost think I know to be the case, the results of this study will
>> show that we can probably say a fair bit about <100 year
>> extra-tropical NH temperature variability (at least as far as we
>> believe the proxy estimates), but honestly know fuck-all about what
>> the >100 year variability was like with any certainty (i.e. we know
>> with certainty that we know fuck-all).
>>
>> /end quotes
>>
>> http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=356&filename=106259233...
>>
>> I like the last bit and it need repeating:
>>
>> (i.e. we know with certainty that we know fuck-all)
>
>It's funny that you can't seem to find the energy to copy the dates on
>these e-mails.
>
>This one was dated
>
>"3 Sep 2003 08:32:11 -0400"
>
>which is six years ago, and it clearly suggests that he was hoping to
>do some work which would at least quantify
>our ignorance.
>
>Since then we have started getting data from the Argo buoys, and
>Edward Cook seems to have found enough new evidence to make him a
>little more confident
>
>http://www.enn.com/top_stories/article/38913
>
>Sometimes it takes a while before a scientist can really get his head
>around new data.

So I see. Like getting their heads around climate modelling.

Kevin Trenberth, one of the alarminsts, sums it up nicely:

/quote

In fact there are no predictions by IPCC at all. And there never have
been. The IPCC instead proffers "what if" projections of future
climate that correspond to certain emissions scenarios. There are a
number of assumptions that go into these emissions scenarios. They are
intended to cover a range of possible self consistent "story lines"
that then provide decision makers with information about which paths
might be more desirable. But they do not consider many things like the
recovery of the ozone layer, for instance, or observed trends in
forcing agents. There is no estimate, even probabilistically, as to
the likelihood of any emissions scenario and no best guess.

Even if there were, the projections are based on model results that
provide differences of the future climate relative to that today. None
of the models used by IPCC are initialized to the observed state and
none of the climate states in the models correspond even remotely to
the current observed climate. In particular, the state of the oceans,
sea ice, and soil moisture has no relationship to the observed state
at any recent time in any of the IPCC models. There is neither an El
Niño sequence nor any Pacific Decadal Oscillation that replicates the
recent past; yet these are critical modes of variability that affect
Pacific rim countries and beyond. The Atlantic Multidecadal
Oscillation, that may depend on the thermohaline circulation and thus
ocean currents in the Atlantic, is not set up to match today's state,
but it is a critical component of the Atlantic hurricanes and it
undoubtedly affects forecasts for the next decade from Brazil to
Europe. Moreover, the starting climate state in several of the models
may depart significantly from the real climate owing to model errors.
I postulate that regional climate change is impossible to deal with
properly unless the models are initialized.

/end quote

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:19 am
From: John Devereux

"JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:16:47 +0000, John Devereux
> <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>"JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:21:48 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>>> <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Dec 4, 12:04 pm, John Devereux <j...@devereux.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>> I don't have the time to go deeply enough into AGW to have an
>>>>> independently informed opinion. What I do note is that it is the
>>>>> "supporters" that tend keep coming back with numbers, detailed evidence,
>>>>> rational arguments. And it is the "deniers" who tend to keep coming back
>>>>> with nothing but name calling and the same empty arguments - the same
>>>>> ones refuted here again and again.
>>>>
>>>>I note that trend too.
>>>>
>>>>It is telltale sign of the "deniers" have nothing.
>>>>
>>>>TMT
>>>
>>> Well this is just one handy example plot:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok-ice-core-petit.png
>>>
>>> Please pay attention that is plotted in the first quadrant instead of
>>> the fourth quadrant. It is _CLEARLY_ labeled that going left to right
>>> is going into the past. A correct plot would mirror it on the
>>> vertical axis so that the past is to the left. Then proper temporal
>>> conclusions could be drawn.
>>
>>I don't understand what you are complaining about here. As you say it is
>>clearly labelled so what is the problem?
>
> The way that the curves are mishandled by Algor in his book, "An
> inconvenient truth", for one. Study it, you can discover what i am
> talking about.

He's not a climate scientist is he? Just a politician.

Sorry, you won't convince me the current global scientific consensus on
climate change is all wrong, by claiming to find a mistake in a
politicians polularization.

Politicians and the media talk nonsense about climate change all the
time, but they do that about a lot of other stuff too.

We just had some flooding here in a region of the UK, a "300 year"
rainstorm that washed away bridges and killed a police officer. Of
course it was reported as being a symptom of global warming by the
media, which it is not. Actual climatologists do not actually say things
like that. They might say something like "in the long term we expect to
see a trend towards increased occurences of extreme weather events, due
to increased available thermal energy in the atmosphere". Or some
such.

John Devereux

==============================================================================
TOPIC: dark halls at work
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8a93a77e6a670fd5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 12:58 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> On Dec 7, 2:23 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >
> > > They figured me out and wouldn't sell me flashbulbs, but a pinch of
> > > fine steel wool in the sockets does the job.
> >
> > How far would 10 pounds of 0000 go? :)
>
> I doubt I used 10 grams before everyone figured out who was behind it;
> many other college students pulled pranks but theirs were destructive,
> mine just startling,

I picked up two five pound boxes for $2 each when the local Harbor
Freight store dropped it from their stock. More than I should ever
need, but I won't have to worry about running out in the middle of a
project, either. :)

--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: America's Archaic Election System
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9acfd28b46a76774?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 1:06 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Buerste wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:mLidnc3UmamwyYDWnZ2dnUVZ_tJi4p2d@earthlink.com...
> >
> > Buerste wrote:
> >>
> >> <dcaster@krl.org> wrote in message
> >> news:a0514712-06b3-46b2-bae0-87f85017aca3@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Dec 7, 1:11 am, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
> >> > A straight popular vote would work, and wouldn't be too hard to
> >> > implement,
> >>
> >> > Cheers!
> >> > Rich
> >> A straight popular vote would not work.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> How about a straight popular vote only by people that actually pay
> >> federal
> >> income taxes? THAT would certainly change EVERYTHING!
> >
> >
> > So, you want to take away the right to vote from Disabled Veterans?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Offworld checks no longer accepted!
>
> You don't have to pay taxes on your pittance of VA benefits? How did Obammy
> miss that? I told you I think all vets should get a million dollars for
> every year of service...and that's NOT enough!

Non service connected disability is $985 a month. That is about 50%
below the poverty level. People on welfare get more.

My military medical records are 'conveniently' missing, or I would
get $3800 a month.

--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PLC?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/12b9811622e75f4d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 1:48 am
From: cavelamb

Don Foreman wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:53:28 -0600, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Tim Wescott wrote:
>>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:08:33 -0600, RogerN wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns9CDB69C4283C2lloydspmindspringcom@216.168.3.70...
>>>>> "RogerN" <regor@midwest.net> fired this volley in
>>>>> news:d4mdnRlQdZusOoDWnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps as part of the program you could have it record how much
>>>>>> adjust time of the curtains accumulated over a day. Try to tune the
>>>>>> algorithm for best temperature control with minimal winch run time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Roger, a decent PID algorithm accommodates changes in conditions, and
>>>>> "learns" the lead/lag characteristics of the system. Most of the even
>>>>> most-basic PID controllers (ready made) have that capability.
>>>>>
>>>>> LLoyd
>>>> It's been a while since I messed with my Basic Stamp but IIRC they used
>>>> 8 bit integer math. My Basic Stamp 1 had only about 16 bytes ram, I'm
>>>> not sure that would do a PID control, maybe. I think the BS2 has about
>>>> twice that amount of ram. I'm not to great at working with integer
>>>> math, especially 8 bit.
>>>>
>>>> RogerN
>>> Ouch. That's pretty restrictive. You'd need at least 16 bits to do PID
>>> in this sort of thing, and mo is better.
>>>
>>
>> 'splain why?
>>
>> The timing is closer to hours than milliseconds.
>> A real time interrupt (external 555?) for the long delay?
>>
>> 8 bits of temperature is 256 value spread.
>>
>> The AtoD function can be external hardware, or an external mux if
>> an internal AtoD is there. One bit to select from two sources,
>> two bits for 4.
>>
>> Motor control is one bit for direction, one for Go.
>> An eight bit count for run time to position the vent.
>>
>>
>>
>> Too much bloatware in the world today.
>>
>> What we need are more Assembly Programmers!
>
> Are you volunteering to assist?
>
>

Well, maybe...

If I got a "development system" for christmas?

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 3:30 am
From: "RogerN"

"Don Foreman" <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
news:tg6uh5tosul328v5knmh8mn1cq69uohl06@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 19:31:56 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
> <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>My first winter project is on my new high tunnel (greenhouse) High
>>temperature control by ventilation is critical for good growing. I will be
>>ventilating by using a rollup side curtain. I plan to automate the process
>>by using a small 12 volt DC gear motor and wench. I've settled on my
>>mechanical design and plan to order parts tomorrow.
>>
>>My query is on control. KISS is the order of the day here. I plan on two
>>thermostats - Hi and Lo. Also two limit switches - full open and full
>>closed. The control is simple - if you make Hi; roll up for a few seconds
>>and go to delay timer. If you make Lo unroll a few seconds and go to delay
>>timer. Stop on limit switches. Repeat 24X7.
>>
>>I'm thinking this is PLC territory. I know nothing about them. Is there an
>>inexpensive simple to program unit that runs on 12 volt DC? Alternatively,
>>I
>>can see a way to do it with a timer that continuously does a few seconds
>>on
>>then several minutes off continuously.
>>
>>Karl
>
> If outdoor temp is higher than your minimum, if the temp ever got high
> enough to open the curtain it'd stay open until outdoor temp drops.
>
> If outdoor temp is lower than your min but there's enough sun to heat
> the space to above max with curtain closed, then the system would
> cycle, alternately opening and closing.
>
> If outdoor temp is lower than min and there's not enough sun to reach
> max temp, then the curtain would stay closed.
>
> If you only partially move the curtain and then go to a delay timer
> for a while to see if that move drops temp below max, might it take
> unacceptably long to fully open on a high temp condition? The time
> constant will be quite different on calm days vs windy days.
>
> A PID controller with a temperature sensor would provide better
> temperature stability, but at the expense of battery life because the
> curtain would be making small moves very often. You'd need curtain
> position feedback too.
>

I was wondering if he could use a string pot on the curtain for position
feedback? I've never eBayed for them but I don't think they are very cheap
new.

RogerN

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 3:52 am
From: cavelamb

RogerN wrote:
> "Don Foreman" <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
> news:tg6uh5tosul328v5knmh8mn1cq69uohl06@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 19:31:56 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
>> <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My first winter project is on my new high tunnel (greenhouse) High
>>> temperature control by ventilation is critical for good growing. I will be
>>> ventilating by using a rollup side curtain. I plan to automate the process
>>> by using a small 12 volt DC gear motor and wench. I've settled on my
>>> mechanical design and plan to order parts tomorrow.
>>>
>>> My query is on control. KISS is the order of the day here. I plan on two
>>> thermostats - Hi and Lo. Also two limit switches - full open and full
>>> closed. The control is simple - if you make Hi; roll up for a few seconds
>>> and go to delay timer. If you make Lo unroll a few seconds and go to delay
>>> timer. Stop on limit switches. Repeat 24X7.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking this is PLC territory. I know nothing about them. Is there an
>>> inexpensive simple to program unit that runs on 12 volt DC? Alternatively,
>>> I
>>> can see a way to do it with a timer that continuously does a few seconds
>>> on
>>> then several minutes off continuously.
>>>
>>> Karl
>> If outdoor temp is higher than your minimum, if the temp ever got high
>> enough to open the curtain it'd stay open until outdoor temp drops.
>>
>> If outdoor temp is lower than your min but there's enough sun to heat
>> the space to above max with curtain closed, then the system would
>> cycle, alternately opening and closing.
>>
>> If outdoor temp is lower than min and there's not enough sun to reach
>> max temp, then the curtain would stay closed.
>>
>> If you only partially move the curtain and then go to a delay timer
>> for a while to see if that move drops temp below max, might it take
>> unacceptably long to fully open on a high temp condition? The time
>> constant will be quite different on calm days vs windy days.
>>
>> A PID controller with a temperature sensor would provide better
>> temperature stability, but at the expense of battery life because the
>> curtain would be making small moves very often. You'd need curtain
>> position feedback too.
>>
>
> I was wondering if he could use a string pot on the curtain for position
> feedback? I've never eBayed for them but I don't think they are very cheap
> new.
>
> RogerN
>
>

I would think a simple timing loop would do it.
Run the device and see how long it takes to go from one end
to the other. Divide that by 256 for max resolution, or more
likely by 16 - plenty of resolution for a vent.

I would like to see limit switches at each end just for safety sake.
That would take up two bits of input per vent.
But if the device has comfortable "over-run" areas, it might not be needed.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 4:07 am
From: Pete Keillor

On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:06:17 -0600, Don Foreman
<dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:

>
>
>>
>>"Karl Townsend" <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:4b1d5e08$0$77560$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
>
>>>
>>> You described the exact issue. Mechanically, I've got it geared down to
>>> raise/lower 12"/minute with a total travel of 60 inches. Gets hard to gear
>>> it much slower. My "plan A" is two stats so you have a dead band, then
>>> play with % run to get response without oscillation. I suppose if you knew
>>> exactly what percent on/off was optimum you could just gear it for 100%
>>> on.
>
>You can't know that because it will change significantly with cloud
>cover, sun angle, wind, etc.
>>>
>
>
>
It ain't hard, it just ain't cheap. I used a double reduction
Sumitomo cycloid drive of 3400:1 to drive the continuous filter I
invented. Web movement maximum was 60"/hour, min was close to zero.
I'd mark the web, go have a cup of coffee, come back and stick a ruler
on it to make sure it was working.

Pete Keillor

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 4:13 am
From: "Karl Townsend"

>>> Too much bloatware in the world today.
>>>
>>> What we need are more Assembly Programmers!
>>
>> Are you volunteering to assist?
>
> Well, maybe...
>
> If I got a "development system" for christmas?
>
> :)
>

I talked this project over with my crop consultant today. He said I should
apply for a research grant and thinks I'd probably win. In that case, this
device needs better EE than I can do. A ways down the road, but would you
like to help design phase two?

Karl

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:03 am
From: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Don Foreman <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> fired this volley in
news:tg6uh5tosul328v5knmh8mn1cq69uohl06@4ax.com:

> You'd need curtain
> position feedback too.
>

I said that too, earlier, then realized that you don't need position
feedback.

A PID loop outputs a signal proportional to the amount of correction
required. One could position the curtain according to the correction
signal, and not require that the position be fed back to the controller.

That would still require more complex drive controls than simply "on-
off/up-down", but the position controlling mechanism could be part of the
curtain drive itself, rather than feeding back to the controller. Think
of how a PWM model aircraft servo works.

The receiver never "knows" the position of the servos. It merely outputs
a pulse width proportional to the position desired, and the servo goes
there - then nulls - on its own.

A string pot and a comparator could comprise the basics of such an auto-
positioning mechanism. In use, the controller would not have to output
on-off, or up-down outputs, just an analog signal or pulse width
modulated signal that represented the desired absolute curtain position.

LLoyd

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:03 am
From: cavelamb

Karl Townsend wrote:
>>>> Too much bloatware in the world today.
>>>>
>>>> What we need are more Assembly Programmers!
>>> Are you volunteering to assist?
>> Well, maybe...
>>
>> If I got a "development system" for christmas?
>>
>> :)
>>
>
> I talked this project over with my crop consultant today. He said I should
> apply for a research grant and thinks I'd probably win. In that case, this
> device needs better EE than I can do. A ways down the road, but would you
> like to help design phase two?
>
> Karl
>
>
Sure Karl,

You get some grant money for research and development, I'm your geek.

It would be fun. I haven't done a control project in ages.

I have a little CMOS Z80 controller board worked up that should run on
about 25 milliamps (not counting off board I/O interfaces, of course).

Personally, I'd go that way and just write in Z80 Assembly, or Tiny C, or
as fast as this thing would run maybe even BASIC. Once it's up and running,
anybody could then tinker with the software quite easily.

It would be a little overkill, but if I'm writing code, I'd prefer to do
it on something I already know.

Fewer surprises.

And, like Roger pointed out, the little controllers are, well, little(!)

Richard

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:06 am
From: cavelamb

Pete Keillor wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:06:17 -0600, Don Foreman
> <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>> "Karl Townsend" <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4b1d5e08$0$77560$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
>>>> You described the exact issue. Mechanically, I've got it geared down to
>>>> raise/lower 12"/minute with a total travel of 60 inches. Gets hard to gear
>>>> it much slower. My "plan A" is two stats so you have a dead band, then
>>>> play with % run to get response without oscillation. I suppose if you knew
>>>> exactly what percent on/off was optimum you could just gear it for 100%
>>>> on.
>> You can't know that because it will change significantly with cloud
>> cover, sun angle, wind, etc.
>>
>>
> It ain't hard, it just ain't cheap. I used a double reduction
> Sumitomo cycloid drive of 3400:1 to drive the continuous filter I
> invented. Web movement maximum was 60"/hour, min was close to zero.
> I'd mark the web, go have a cup of coffee, come back and stick a ruler
> on it to make sure it was working.
>
> Pete Keillor

Well, not to be contradictory, but it is both easy and cheep - in software.

Once you have the drive running that can handle the mechanical loads,
controlling the speed is simple stuff.

Richard

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Obama Approval Slips to 47%
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f9881c9d8e354410?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 3:12 am
From: "HH&C"

On Dec 8, 11:36 pm, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:37:05 -0800, "Steve B" <deserttra...@dishmail.net>
> wrote:
>
> > "Buerste" <buer...@wowway.com> wrote in message
> >news:hfmt7f$c5u$1@aioe.org...
>
> >> "HH&C" <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:60188db8-0e69-43f0-
>
> b1a6-4ce5415a4...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On Dec 8, 7:27 pm, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:21:14 -0700, Crossfire <mi...@theduderanch.mx>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>> > Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
> >>> >> On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:51:09 -0700, Crossfire
> >>> >> <mi...@theduderanch.mx> wrote:
>
> >>> >>> Only because he is an asshole.
>
> >>> >> Pot, meet kettle.
>
> >>> > Asshole, meet weinie.
>
> >>> Homosexual fantasy noted.
>
> >> Curly, I thought you were tight with the gay community?
> >> **************************************
>
> >> You can't say "Gay", "Curly" and "Tight" in the same sentence.
>
> > You can, but it sounds kinky.
>
> > Steve
>
> Have you ever noticed that it's the wacko right, neocons & Republicans
> who are constantly mentioning cocksucking, asshole, weinie, butt-buddies,
> faggot, gay and sucking? They really need to find an outlet for all
> those repressed hormones...
>
> Maybe they'd think straighter too.
>
> --
> Regards, Curly
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 2012 Run, John, Run! 2012
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've noticed that Bob Brock, AKA Douschebag, posted a homo-erotic
fantasy about me on misc.survivalism.

That kind of shoots down your theory,doesn't it?

I guess not. That's why people say that you are a hypocrite and a
liar.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: "Smooth-Away"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/97ad738fdc1340d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 4:08 am
From: "JosephKK"

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 22:13:17 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
<huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:

>
>"Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:hfhqme$uvj$1@aioe.org...
>> JosephKK wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:29:29 -0500, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> amdx wrote:
>>>>> "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hfbvgo$n6g$2@aioe.org...
>>>>>> Rich Grise wrote:
>>>>>>> How is this stuff different from, say, crocus cloth?
>>>>>>> https://www.getsmoothaway.com/ver41/index.asp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Rich
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's basically the same stuff. BUT-- It is marketed better...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Steve W.
>>>>> What's the difference between crocus cloth and emery cloth?
>>>>> Not that I want to use either under my arm!
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Crocus cloth uses Iron Oxide as the abrasive
>>>> Emery cloth uses Emery as the abrasive.
>>>
>>> No, it is actually fineness of the grit.
>>
>> NO
>> Crocus cloth is the reddish color it is due to being made using iron
>> oxide for the abrasive.
>
>Crocus cloth comes in two colors -- a maroonish red, and gray. They're two
>different oxides of iron. The maroonish is Fe2O3. Neither is very hard; the
>natural material runs around 5.5 to 6.5 on the Mohs scale. They make good
>polishing abrasives for softer metals.
>
>>
>> Emery cloth is NAMED because it uses Emery grit as the abrasive.
>
>Emery can be a natural material, mostly corundum (aluminum oxide) and Fe2O3
>or spinel. The synthetic version is what's used for emery paper today. It's
>pretty hard -- the corundum component is around 9 on the Mohs scale, but the
>other constituents make the emery material somewhat softer, usually around 8
>or below.
>
>I don't know about this product but many of the cosmetic abrasives are
>either garnet or just crystalline silica, or even sand.

Thanks Ed. Your response is more complete and clearer than mine.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 4:13 am
From: "JosephKK"

On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:50:13 -0500, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

>JosephKK wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:43:04 -0500, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:52:33 -0800, "Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> A terrible link - sorry for that.
>>>>>
>>>> This is why i rarely click on a posted link until someone else has commented
>>>> on it. Most are a waste of time, a few are interesting, and then there is
>>>> the rare trap.
>>>
>>> Or just turn off all scripting in your browser... Much easier.
>>
>> I would like to. But two sites i really want require java to work
>> right. What i really need is much more fine grained control, off
>> generally and on for specific sites.
>>
>> The same issue with cookies.
>
>You can do that in Firefox 3.5

I might try it if i thought it was properly stable. Good old MSWin
age software, if it is mostly running ship it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Obama nickel-dimes school supplies
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/b98c3385068cd54d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 4:29 am
From: Marciango

On Dec 7, 3:20 pm, "Lib Loo" <heezb...@crazymother.kom> wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d5c8f919-94f5-44e1-b058-fc50e658f7ec@w19g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -> On Dec 7, 9:17 am, "Lib Loo" <heezb...@crazymother.kom> wrote:
> >> Supplies with Obama logo surprise school
> >> By Jonathon Braden
>
> >> Thursday, December 3, 2009
>
> >> Pencils and notebooks resembling President Barack Obama's 2008 campaign
> >> ads
> >> have been sold in at least one Columbia school and other public schools,
> >> causing the company that distributes the materials to travel around the
> >> state yanking the supplies out of machines.
>
> >> "Don't be mad at us," said Greg Jones, a sales representative with Pencil
> >> Wholesale. "It was a total accident."
>
> >> Pencil Wholesale distributes supplies to six Columbia schools: Parkade
> >> Elementary, Cedar Ridge Elementary, Paxton Keeley Elementary, Mill Creek
> >> Elementary, Smithton Middle School and Hickman High School, said Linda
> >> Quinley, the district's chief financial officer.
>
> >> At Mill Creek, at least one pencil and a notebook with designs similar to
> >> Obama campaign advertisements have been sold out of a supply machine. Two
> >> families have complained about the politically tinged materials.
>
> >> Three Missouri schools have contacted Jones since the beginning of the
> >> school year asking that the materials be removed, and Mill Creek
> >> Principal
> >> Mary Sue Gibson this week said she also planned to call Pencil Wholesale.
>
> >> "I just don't want to get into that political arena at all," she said.
>
> >> The bound three-ring notebook bears a photo of literal change - pennies,
> >> quarters, dimes and nickels stacked into piles. Above the photo, white
> >> text
> >> reads "CHANGE" over a navy background.
>
> >> Below the photo, "WE CAN BELIEVE IN" sits above a logo similar to Obama's
> >> campaign image - three red stripes separated by white stripes in front of
> >> a
> >> white circle with a blue background arching over the circle.
>
> >> The supplies were designed by the art department of Harcourt Pencil Co.,
> >> based in Milroy, Ind., Jones said.
>
> >> "The art department was trying to be cutesy," he said.
>
> >> There was no response this morning to a phone message to Harcourt.
>
> >> Jones delivers the supplies to about 800 schools. He remembers seeing the
> >> Obama-esque notebook when it was first designed, but "I didn't think one
> >> thing about it," he said.
>
> >> Jones has agreed to go to schools that might have received the supplies
> >> and
> >> remove them.
>
> >> "I wish I could do it over," he said. "But, for now, I can just make it
> >> right."
>
> >> Harcourt plans to give Jones a refund on the supplies as well, he said.
>
> >> But first, Jones has to find the supplies. Out of a case of 72 notebooks,
> >> three of the controversial notebooks can be found, he said.
>
> >> "It's turned out to be really ugly," Jones said. "We're trying to get
> >> them
> >> out of the schools as fast as we can."
>
> >> He also wants to be clear that neither he nor his company created the
> >> design. In fact, he said, he's a registered Republican who voted for John
> >> McCain in last year's presidential election.
>
> >> "It's a total nightmare," Jones said.
>
> >>http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/dec/03/supplies-with-obama-l...
>
> > LOL...so Winger Left Behind....worried that those first graders are
> > getting better educated than you are?
>
> > TMT
>
> Where'd you get your education? Tell me where'd you get your education from?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUSJRKGhRgQ

why u r writing a book

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lowest of Any President ever
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/4eb5c42170c34bf9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:01 am
From: hal

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:30:42 -0600, "Lib Loo"
<heezback@crazymother.kom> wrote:

>http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/08/obamas-percent-approval-lowest-president-point/
>Bill Sammon
>FOXNews.com December 08, 2009
>
>
>Obama's 47 Percent Approval Lowest of Any President at This Point

The economy has never been in the shitter this bad since Hoover handed
FDR a shit sandwich like Bush gave to Obama. And if you rightards
weren't so desperate for Obama to fail then the decent people of
America might actually be able to accomplish what they need to.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Trying to decide on ceiling material.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c1a73c9de4fcdeb5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:11 am
From: stryped

I am needing advice and you guys are some of the smartest on the web.
As you know I have a 30x30 building with 10 foot ceilings. The trusses
are 4 feet apart so I am not sure I can put a drywall ceiling. I plan
on drywalling the walls.

My thoughts are this, either a suspended ceiling with the 2x4 tile or
I thought of using the soffit material like that is used on the roof
of my porch. (The kind without vent holes). When I figured up the cost
for both they were very similar. (Not cheap).

We have suspended ceilings at work and when new they look good but
whenever there is a roof leak or something they get ugly looking
stains on the tiles and the tiles are not cheap. Also, I am a little
worried about the humidity messing with those tiles over time. Also,
when I read the literature, it said to plan on 20 hours of labor to do
a suspended ceiling for a 9x14 room! Since I have to work myself, I
cant image how long it would take to do a 30x30.

So, I have gone back and forth on the issue. Do you guys see any
problem with soffit material? My thought is to use 1x4's nailed on the
bottom of the trusses about every 2-4 feet to help minimize sagging.
Will the soffit still sag? Will it be possible to keep the rows of
soffit straight and how do I go about doing that. (With a chalk line?)

Above whatever type ceiling I use will be clear plastic vapor barrier
with unfaced r-30 fiberglass insulation.

One caveat is I can see sometime in the future needing to get in the
ceiling to run wire or whatever. Hopefully someday to run a central
heat/air unit but that may be a long time from now.

Also, on another note, we have had torrential rains last night. I had
drops of water on the center of the floor. I crawled in the ceiling
and the best I can tell is it is blowing in from the top "ridge cap"
that is on the center of the roof. I assume this is used for
ventilalation?

Anyhow I really appreciate your help!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Emerson Electric
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d5334a532acd709a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:24 am
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Dec 9, 5:23 am, Hawke <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:

>
> > You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America.
>
> I was going to thank the workers in the third world who are doing what
> used to be American jobs for what amounts to slave wages.
>
> Hawke

The people to blame are the damn designers of ships. They designed
container ships that made it much cheaper to ship things. So now
instead of being a US economy, we are in a world economy.

Once the cost of shipping was lowered, the companies had no choice.
If they did not use the most economic way to produce goods, someone
else would have. And the " American " companies would be extinct.

Dan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 3 ton heat pump. WIll 100 amps work?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/abc337cbef3fe3f6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:28 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

There is typically a name plate on the outdoor unit, which
states the power supply amperage. My part of the world has
very few heat pumps, but a 3 ton compressor for central AC
typically circuit breaker 40 or 50 amps, at the most.

Most machinists can do much of the work. But, it requires a
HVAC tech with EPA card to do the copper tubing hookup.
Evacuate the air out of the lines, and properly charge with
refrigerant. Being 15 years old, it's the old R-22. Please
have it done as soon as practical, R-22 is being phased out,
and will go up in price as people start using R-410a.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"stryped" <stryped1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:adaa28a5-1a3b-4357-86a9-55e1ea7e1da8@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
A co worker has a 15 year old 3 ton heat pump split system
with air
conditioner. It works great but is putting a new unit at his
house.
Will this work in my 30x30 garage if I only have 100 amps at
my sub
panel? I also have off this a 1.5 ton unit for a bonus room
that is
almost always off unless we go upstairs. I can get this for
free. I
think the freaon will be emptied though when the guy removes
it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: More climate change.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8206036ed2bfe4ef?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 9 2009 5:38 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Your description more accurately fits left wing liberals.
Most conservatives I've met are reasonably educated and
thoughtful.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
news:hfkf4a$8u3$1@aioe.org...

What you just described is a run of the mill right winger or
a
conservative. Kudos to your getting it just right. These
guys are
basically nothing but tribalists. They think their side is
always right
and always back up whatever the leaders of their side say.
That's one
thing you didn't specifically mention. They don't think for
themselves.
So they have leaders who give them the talking points and
make the
arguments for them that they vociferously express.
Unfortunately the
people they listen to are not experts on anything but are
themselves
simply ordinary and often uneducated folk. Which is why
their arguments
are so simple. The leaders themselves don't understand
complex issues
and see everything as either black or white. They take a
position,
almost always whatever the business community believes, and
accept it as
gospel. Then they send it down the line to the people like
the poster
you so aptly described. It's all so predictable. At this
point they are
pretty much just a joke. No one takes anything they say
seriously.

Hawke

==============================================================================

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009

rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 13 topics - digest

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