twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 9 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nice little online fuel cost comparison calculator
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/413c6f0aad5a7fd4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:04 am
From: "David"

"David" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:hhvr76$lvu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
> "Charlie" <left@thestation.com> wrote in message
> news:hhvq2d$e1o$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote in
>> message news:4b4352f4$0$22516$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>> <.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t3i6k5lklss6rc2p2hj2bo8suerm81685f@4ax.com...
>>>> http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
>>>>
>>>> ( disclaimer - not mine, I just happened to find it )
>>>
>>> Ackshooly, a super-find! Very neat! Looks like the
>>> oil/electric cartels got us by the balls, nice and
>>> tight..
>>> Natural gas and coal were inneresting surprises.
>>>
>>
>> This is sort of a useless chart. What you really want to
>> know is something like: How does the cost of 1000 BTUs
>> compare for coal vs wood pellets? The cost per ton and
>> an efficiency number is meaningless.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> I agree! How about something like this:
>
> 100,000 BTU =
>
> 0.888 Gal. E85 gasoline;
> 0.77 Gal. heating oil;
> 1.76 Gal. Methanol;
> 29.33 KWh electricity;
> ~100 cubic feet natural gas;
> etc. (for wood, coal, ...)
>
> David
I made an error in the table above. The first number should
be for E15 (15% methanol, 85% gasoline.)
David

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:10 am
From: .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:00:01 -0600, "David" <someone@somewhere.com>
wrote:

>
>
>"Charlie" <left@thestation.com> wrote in message
>news:hhvq2d$e1o$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote in
>> message news:4b4352f4$0$22516$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>> <.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t3i6k5lklss6rc2p2hj2bo8suerm81685f@4ax.com...
>>>> http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
>>>>
>>>> ( disclaimer - not mine, I just happened to find it )
>>>
>>> Ackshooly, a super-find! Very neat! Looks like the
>>> oil/electric cartels got us by the balls, nice and
>>> tight..
>>> Natural gas and coal were inneresting surprises.
>>>
>>
>> This is sort of a useless chart. What you really want to
>> know is something like: How does the cost of 1000 BTUs
>> compare for coal vs wood pellets? The cost per ton and an
>> efficiency number is meaningless.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>I agree! How about something like this:
>
>100,000 BTU =
>
>0.888 Gal. E85 gasoline;
>0.77 Gal. heating oil;
>1.76 Gal. Methanol;
>29.33 KWh electricity;
>~100 cubic feet natural gas;
>etc. (for wood, coal, ...)
>
>David
>
>

Which tells us NOTHING about costs,and allows for NO 'what if'
cases of efficiency.

If you want the mere watt / BTU equivalents, that's easily
looked up online.

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo online at www.pmilligan.net/palm/
Free 'People finder' program now at www.pmilligan.net/finder.htm

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:11 am
From: .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:04:40 -0600, "David" <someone@somewhere.com>
wrote:

>
>
>"David" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>news:hhvr76$lvu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>
>> "Charlie" <left@thestation.com> wrote in message
>> news:hhvq2d$e1o$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote in
>>> message news:4b4352f4$0$22516$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>> <.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t3i6k5lklss6rc2p2hj2bo8suerm81685f@4ax.com...
>>>>> http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
>>>>>
>>>>> ( disclaimer - not mine, I just happened to find it )
>>>>
>>>> Ackshooly, a super-find! Very neat! Looks like the
>>>> oil/electric cartels got us by the balls, nice and
>>>> tight..
>>>> Natural gas and coal were inneresting surprises.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is sort of a useless chart. What you really want to
>>> know is something like: How does the cost of 1000 BTUs
>>> compare for coal vs wood pellets? The cost per ton and
>>> an efficiency number is meaningless.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> I agree! How about something like this:
>>
>> 100,000 BTU =
>>
>> 0.888 Gal. E85 gasoline;
>> 0.77 Gal. heating oil;
>> 1.76 Gal. Methanol;
>> 29.33 KWh electricity;
>> ~100 cubic feet natural gas;
>> etc. (for wood, coal, ...)
>>
>> David
>I made an error in the table above. The first number should
>be for E15 (15% methanol, 85% gasoline.)
>David
>

BTW, - did you plan on heating a home with E85, or Methanol ?

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:33 am
From: Mark

>
> This is sort of a useless chart. What you really want to know is something
> like: How does the cost of 1000 BTUs compare for coal vs wood pellets? The
> cost per ton and an efficiency number is meaningless.
>
> Charlie

Did you click the calculate button???

Mark

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:37 am
From: terry

On Jan 5, 12:41 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
wrote:
> <wmbjkREM...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4mm6k5d88p911kikokidq6ddajnp5u0ghd@4ax.com...
>
> > On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:04:57 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> > <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_compariso...
>
> >>Oh, just a note:
>
> >>Filling in the dialogue box can be a little dicey.
>
> >> For example, by the time your fukn utility company gets done with their
> >>goddamm "delivery charge", "pipe charge", this/that/and the other charge,
> >>you can easily DOUBLE the net cost per kwhr
>
> > Just divide your total bill by the number of kWhrs. It's easy.
>
> Brilliant!!
> OK, so electricity is costing me (NYS) about 25c per kwhr, vs. their claimed
> 9.1c per kwhr.
>
> Their claimed 63c per therm winds up costing me $2.35 per therm.
>
> Sorta like Uhaul's $19.95 per day rental, which winds up costing $120/day --
> and that was 10 years ago.
>
> Luvin Merka more and more....
> --
> EA
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wayne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yup; very excellent 'extra charges' points made by various posters.
Ours (typically) works out to just slightly over 10 cents (Canadian)
per kilowatt hour, all charges in. We are in fairly lightly populated
zone. Our house is all electric; built in 1970.

Our 'other' charges include a per month account fee of around $16.
Also HST. That's a combined federal and provincial government sales
tax on the total foregoing amount. HST is also levied on most things
except food and a few other categories.

Since the Can. dollar is currently worth about 0.95 of the US, we are
therefore paying about 9.6 cents US, per kilowatt hour for domestic
electrcity. There's no cheap rates or night time discounts as in some
countries such as the UK. (Run your clothes dryer on timer at 2.00 AM;
eh?)

About 96% of our hydro, in next few to be 100%, is generated by water
power (hydro).

Hydro power from the existing or Upper Churchill is already provided
and sold to the North Eastern USA via Quebec Hydro. It does as we say
here; 'Help to power New York'! Quebec hydro pays a very low cost per
kilowatt hour to the owners of the water resources that power the
generation. Somewhere it is said around 0.4 cents per kilowatt hour
and that takes into account also that the original capital cost of the
generating facility itself was paid off long ago.

In the next few years this part of North America will be licensing the
building and generating significant additional hydro power capacity at
the large Lower Churchill project in Labrador. Provided another way
can be found of transporting the new source of hydro power to the
North Eastern US it appears that ecologically friendly and economical
electricity could be provided to North American consumers, both
Canadian and US, in the eastern areas of both countries, at a very
reasonable rates. Within next ten years or less.

Maybe posters should talk to their US legislators about this; there
will certainly economics of scale if both the fewer number of
customers in Atlantic Canada and the clean power requirements of the
adjacent US states customers can be served cooperatively!

BTW. Thanks for the tip about disused credit card charges!
Just called our CC and they advised that if there was a positive
balance and no activity on the card for 12 months they would use up
that positive balance with a per annum. charge of $10!

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:09 am
From: "pdrahn@coinet.com"

On Jan 5, 9:37 am, terry <tsanf...@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Jan 5, 12:41 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> BTW. Thanks for the tip about disused credit card charges!
> Just called our CC and they advised that if there was a positive
> balance and no activity on the card for 12 months they would use up
> that positive balance with a per annum. charge of $10!

Banks have done this for years. At least here in Oregon. I remember
programming that feature into savings account programs back in the
1970's. They used to let inactive accounts lay dormant for years and
years. Then the State got wise and demanded the balance be sent to
them. The bank said to hell with the state, we will take it. If the
account owner ever wanted his money back, the bank would refund it, of
course, but most owners never were found.

I have to wonder how anyone would have a positive balance on their CC.
Suppose it's possible due to overpayment and such.

Paul

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:36 am
From: "Charlie"

<.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:ter6k5lcplqrcsqahbf0db5271k70667jh@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:40:41 -0500, "Charlie" <left@thestation.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>news:4b4352f4$0$22516$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>> <.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t3i6k5lklss6rc2p2hj2bo8suerm81685f@4ax.com...
>>>> http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
>>>>
>>>> ( disclaimer - not mine, I just happened to find it )
>>>
>>> Ackshooly, a super-find! Very neat! Looks like the oil/electric
>>> cartels
>>> got us by the balls, nice and tight..
>>> Natural gas and coal were inneresting surprises.
>>>
>>
>>This is sort of a useless chart. What you really want to know is something
>>like: How does the cost of 1000 BTUs compare for coal vs wood pellets?
>>The
>>cost per ton and an efficiency number is meaningless.
>>
>>Charlie
>>
>
> The calcs can be approached from a large number of different
> angles. This particular free tool shows one way. If you don't like
> it, I'm sure they'll refund your money.
>
It's worth what I paid for it.

> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
> www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo online at www.pmilligan.net/palm/
> Free 'People finder' program now at www.pmilligan.net/finder.htm

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:39 am
From: "Charlie"

<.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:eis6k51filc3afuk3h34aseng51dbq94a7@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:00:01 -0600, "David" <someone@somewhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Charlie" <left@thestation.com> wrote in message
>>news:hhvq2d$e1o$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote in
>>> message news:4b4352f4$0$22516$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>> <.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t3i6k5lklss6rc2p2hj2bo8suerm81685f@4ax.com...
>>>>> http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
>>>>>
>>>>> ( disclaimer - not mine, I just happened to find it )
>>>>
>>>> Ackshooly, a super-find! Very neat! Looks like the
>>>> oil/electric cartels got us by the balls, nice and
>>>> tight..
>>>> Natural gas and coal were inneresting surprises.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is sort of a useless chart. What you really want to
>>> know is something like: How does the cost of 1000 BTUs
>>> compare for coal vs wood pellets? The cost per ton and an
>>> efficiency number is meaningless.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>>I agree! How about something like this:
>>
>>100,000 BTU =
>>
>>0.888 Gal. E85 gasoline;
>>0.77 Gal. heating oil;
>>1.76 Gal. Methanol;
>>29.33 KWh electricity;
>>~100 cubic feet natural gas;
>>etc. (for wood, coal, ...)
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>
> Which tells us NOTHING about costs,and allows for NO 'what if'
> cases of efficiency.
>
> If you want the mere watt / BTU equivalents, that's easily
> looked up online.

That makes a lot of sense. Not!

>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
> www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo online at www.pmilligan.net/palm/
> Free 'People finder' program now at www.pmilligan.net/finder.htm

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:41 am
From: "Charlie"

"Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e35e4aae-b447-4c3c-9959-a9531e4531c0@f6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...

Did you click the calculate button???

Mark

Nope, I didn't scroll down the page that far.
Thanks for the pointer

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Staff Resigns En Masse
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/63404492ee6c66f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:08 am
From: Frank

On 1/5/2010 4:39 AM, Cliff wrote:
> http://www.rttnews.com/Content/PoliticalNews.aspx?Node=B1&Id=1170104
> "Democrat-Turned-Republican Congressman's Staff Resigns En Masse"
> [
> An Alabama representative's decision to leave the Democratic party and become a
> Republican has been met by a mass resignation of his staff.
>
> The entire legislative staff and communications team for Rep. Parker Griffith
> along with "nearly every" other member of his Congressional office resigned
> Monday, calling Griffith's late December party switch a mistake, according to
> former staff members.
>
> Griffith's former chief of staff, Sharon Wheeler, said that his district had
> benefitted in the past from a long line of conservative Democrats and accused
> Griffith of abandoning their legacy.
>
> "I appreciate Congressman Griffith's being a very dedicated congressman,"
> Wheeler said. "But we believe he made a mistake - a well-intentioned but
> misguided mistake that is not in the interest of the great people of North
> Alabama who elected him a year ago as a Democrat."
> ....
> ]
> [
> Griffith won a narrow victory in his election with heavy support from Democrats
> nationally, prompting Rep. Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., the leader of the Democratic
> Congressional Campaign Committee, to call on Griffith to return campaign
> contributions and the more than $1 million spent by the committee on his race.
> ....
> ]
>
> Two-faced. Fine rethug material.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=UZkvkLmkYVg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: No rise of air born carbon Dioxide in Past 150 Years
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/df825c598f468102?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:12 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
news:4b43685f$0$19864$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
> The fact remains, we are still waiting for the scientific evidence that
> proves CO2, a gas the
> comprise less than one tenth of one percent of our atmosphere, can effect
> the average temperature of the earth either up or down.

The evidence is in the emission spectra of infrared from the earth's
atmosphere. The emission spectra of CO2 is well-known, and multiple studies
confirming the base-level spectra (and changes in it) of the atmosphere have
confirmed the effect of CO2. I mentioned in a previous message that it's
been calculated at 10% - 20% of the total greenhouse effect.

However, I have to take their word for it. I don't do quantum analysis of
the emissions from photo-excited gas molecules. I have to leave that to the
people who know what they're talking about.

So, if you *do* know what you're talking about, and you reject the numerous
studies (Herzberg 1953, Burch 1962, Burch 1970, etc) for some scientific
reason that you really understand, then I'll have to defer to your
expertise.

--
Ed Huntress

>
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4b428afe$0$5015$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
>> news:4b4272ae$0$10857$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
>>> Of course the amount of moisture in the air greatly effects the
>>> temperature below. In fact moisture has thousands of times as much
>>> effect as anything else in the atmosphere. Moisture Is also many many
>>> times greater in the atmosphere, than is CO2. CO2 is a minuscule part
>>> of the atmosphere, precisely why it can not effect the temperature of
>>> the earth either up or down.
>>>
>>> If you do a search you will discover that fact. Do a search and lean
>>> the actual percentages of the individual gasses in the atmosphere, would
>>> be a good place to start. You will discover that two well know gasses
>>> comprise over 90% of our atmosphere.
>>>
>>> Actually I do not expect you to know the answers to the questions I ask,
>>> about what I have discovered. I was simply trying to raise your
>>> awareness of the subject, to get you do the types of searchers I have
>>> done and learned the truth.
>>>
>>> The fact remains there is NO scientific evidence that proves CO2, a gas
>>> that comprise less than ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of our atmosphere, can
>>> effect the average temperature of the earth either up or down.
>>
>> Yeah. Ok. I just wanted to be sure you weren't questioning the principle
>> of the atmospheric greenhouse effect, which is as solid as any physical
>> science.
>>
>> '
>>>
>>> You are free to believe whatever you wish no mater how convolved you
>>> reasoning may be. One would expect any thinking person would want to see
>>> that scientific evidence, if there was any, and be suspect of those that
>>> have convinced them that man can effect the temperature on earth, bye.
>>
>> Ok, I'm glad I'm free. <g> I'll do just that, Mike.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>>
>
>

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:12 am
From: "Mike Hunter"

That my be true but the fact remains, we are still waiting for the
scientific EVIDENCE that PROVES CO2, a gas that comprises less than ONE
TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of our atmosphere, can effect the average temperature
of the earth either up or down.

Until that scientific evidence emerges will can never know HOW CO2, a gas
the comprise less than one tenth of one percent of our atmosphere, can
effect the average temperature of the earth either up or down.

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b4372f0$0$31261$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
> news:4b43685f$0$19864$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
>> The fact remains, we are still waiting for the scientific evidence that
>> proves CO2, a gas the
>> comprise less than one tenth of one percent of our atmosphere, can effect
>> the average temperature of the earth either up or down.
>
> The evidence is in the emission spectra of infrared from the earth's
> atmosphere. The emission spectra of CO2 is well-known, and multiple
> studies confirming the base-level spectra (and changes in it) of the
> atmosphere have confirmed the effect of CO2. I mentioned in a previous
> message that it's been calculated at 10% - 20% of the total greenhouse
> effect.
>
> However, I have to take their word for it. I don't do quantum analysis of
> the emissions from photo-excited gas molecules. I have to leave that to
> the people who know what they're talking about.
>
> So, if you *do* know what you're talking about, and you reject the
> numerous studies (Herzberg 1953, Burch 1962, Burch 1970, etc) for some
> scientific reason that you really understand, then I'll have to defer to
> your expertise.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>>
>>
>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4b428afe$0$5015$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
>>> news:4b4272ae$0$10857$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
>>>> Of course the amount of moisture in the air greatly effects the
>>>> temperature below. In fact moisture has thousands of times as much
>>>> effect as anything else in the atmosphere. Moisture Is also many
>>>> many times greater in the atmosphere, than is CO2. CO2 is a minuscule
>>>> part of the atmosphere, precisely why it can not effect the temperature
>>>> of the earth either up or down.
>>>>
>>>> If you do a search you will discover that fact. Do a search and lean
>>>> the actual percentages of the individual gasses in the atmosphere,
>>>> would be a good place to start. You will discover that two well know
>>>> gasses comprise over 90% of our atmosphere.
>>>>
>>>> Actually I do not expect you to know the answers to the questions I
>>>> ask, about what I have discovered. I was simply trying to raise your
>>>> awareness of the subject, to get you do the types of searchers I have
>>>> done and learned the truth.
>>>>
>>>> The fact remains there is NO scientific evidence that proves CO2, a gas
>>>> that comprise less than ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of our atmosphere, can
>>>> effect the average temperature of the earth either up or down.
>>>
>>> Yeah. Ok. I just wanted to be sure you weren't questioning the principle
>>> of the atmospheric greenhouse effect, which is as solid as any physical
>>> science.
>>>
>>> '
>>>>
>>>> You are free to believe whatever you wish no mater how convolved you
>>>> reasoning may be. One would expect any thinking person would want to
>>>> see that scientific evidence, if there was any, and be suspect of those
>>>> that have convinced them that man can effect the temperature on earth,
>>>> bye.
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm glad I'm free. <g> I'll do just that, Mike.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:33 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
news:4b43800f$0$6424$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
> That my be true but the fact remains, we are still waiting for the
> scientific EVIDENCE that PROVES CO2, a gas that comprises less than ONE
> TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of our atmosphere, can effect the average temperature
> of the earth either up or down.
>
> Until that scientific evidence emerges will can never know HOW CO2, a gas
> the comprise less than one tenth of one percent of our atmosphere, can
> effect the average temperature of the earth either up or down.

Uh, right. I won't ask you why you reject the papers below (all published
before this was a politicized subject, which is why I chose those early
studies.) My fear is that what we'll hear from you is that the Planck
function is all wrong, and then I'll really be lost. d8-)

Carry on. I occassionally stop in here to watch the Dance of the Sugarplum
Climatologists, and it's often interesting.

--
Ed Huntress

>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4b4372f0$0$31261$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
>> news:4b43685f$0$19864$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
>>> The fact remains, we are still waiting for the scientific evidence that
>>> proves CO2, a gas the
>>> comprise less than one tenth of one percent of our atmosphere, can
>>> effect
>>> the average temperature of the earth either up or down.
>>
>> The evidence is in the emission spectra of infrared from the earth's
>> atmosphere. The emission spectra of CO2 is well-known, and multiple
>> studies confirming the base-level spectra (and changes in it) of the
>> atmosphere have confirmed the effect of CO2. I mentioned in a previous
>> message that it's been calculated at 10% - 20% of the total greenhouse
>> effect.
>>
>> However, I have to take their word for it. I don't do quantum analysis of
>> the emissions from photo-excited gas molecules. I have to leave that to
>> the people who know what they're talking about.
>>
>> So, if you *do* know what you're talking about, and you reject the
>> numerous studies (Herzberg 1953, Burch 1962, Burch 1970, etc) for some
>> scientific reason that you really understand, then I'll have to defer to
>> your expertise.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4b428afe$0$5015$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b4272ae$0$10857$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
>>>>> Of course the amount of moisture in the air greatly effects the
>>>>> temperature below. In fact moisture has thousands of times as much
>>>>> effect as anything else in the atmosphere. Moisture Is also many
>>>>> many times greater in the atmosphere, than is CO2. CO2 is a
>>>>> minuscule part of the atmosphere, precisely why it can not effect the
>>>>> temperature of the earth either up or down.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you do a search you will discover that fact. Do a search and lean
>>>>> the actual percentages of the individual gasses in the atmosphere,
>>>>> would be a good place to start. You will discover that two well know
>>>>> gasses comprise over 90% of our atmosphere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually I do not expect you to know the answers to the questions I
>>>>> ask, about what I have discovered. I was simply trying to raise your
>>>>> awareness of the subject, to get you do the types of searchers I have
>>>>> done and learned the truth.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact remains there is NO scientific evidence that proves CO2, a
>>>>> gas that comprise less than ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of our
>>>>> atmosphere, can effect the average temperature of the earth either up
>>>>> or down.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah. Ok. I just wanted to be sure you weren't questioning the
>>>> principle of the atmospheric greenhouse effect, which is as solid as
>>>> any physical science.
>>>>
>>>> '
>>>>>
>>>>> You are free to believe whatever you wish no mater how convolved you
>>>>> reasoning may be. One would expect any thinking person would want to
>>>>> see that scientific evidence, if there was any, and be suspect of
>>>>> those that have convinced them that man can effect the temperature on
>>>>> earth, bye.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I'm glad I'm free. <g> I'll do just that, Mike.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's starting, people
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/460f3af8151604fc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:23 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Ignoramus17642" <ignoramus17642@NOSPAM.17642.invalid> wrote in message
news:qdWdneY2I7nR8N7WnZ2dnUVZ_rRi4p2d@giganews.com...
> On 2010-01-05, wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:59:10 -0600, Ignoramus17642
>><ignoramus17642@NOSPAM.17642.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2010-01-05, wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:28:10 -0600, Ignoramus17642
>>>><ignoramus17642@NOSPAM.17642.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2010-01-05, Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 08:08:50 -0600, Ignoramus17642
>>>>>><ignoramus17642@NOSPAM.17642.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>American rightwingers are way too timid to pull anything like this,
>>>>>>>off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pray really hard that you are right. That way when they simply hang
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> from a street sign...it will be a big surprise. Hummm..you
>>>>>> leftwingers
>>>>>> dont pray do you. No matter. You will still be dead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Works for me.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep, no praying here.
>>>>>
>>>>>Want to wager some money?
>>>>>
>>>>>I can bet $20 that Great Cull will not occur in the period now to
>>>>>2015. If the Civil War occurs before 2015, you win. (at least a
>>>>>million people to be killed) Should be an easy way to make money, for
>>>>>you.
>>>>
>>>> You'll need to get his $20 up front, since it's doubtful that a
>>>> bypass/stroke survivor who's addicted to green monster, mountain dew,
>>>> nicotine, and subsistence living, will last another 5 years. Plus, he
>>>> just finished saying that the "great cull" will be over in 2 years, so
>>>> he'd have to be a pussy to need a spotting of 3 extra years.
>>>
>>>OK, my offer is revised, with the Civil war to occur PRIOR TO
>>>1/1/2013, and result in at least 500,000 deaths. If that happens, I
>>>will pay Gunner $20, if not, Gunner will pay me $20.
>>>
>>>I knowingly accept the risk of Gunner dying, either due to Great Cull
>>>or due to health. I priced this risk into my consideration of the bid.
>>
>> You're still spotting him a year or more, especially since his posts
>> claim that the cull will be *over* in less than 3 years, now 2 years
>> as of his latest cancerous BS this morning. Which means that according
>> to him, all the "leftists" will be dead by Jan 5/2012.
>
> Come on, I want to cut him some slack.
>
>> Hey, just in time to watch the world end according to crackpots who
>> like to hilariously misinterpret the Mayans. :-) Anyway, a pussy
>> like gummer needs all the help he can get, so it's good that you're
>> making it that much easier for him to win, and that much harder for
>> him to weasel out. It's too bad that he's a lot more likely to write
>> a bunch of feeble excuses than to insist on sticking to his own
>> deadline. If he makes any bet at all he'll lose, and you'll go on
>> his payment list somewhere below his other unpaid debts, some of
>> which will be well over 30 years old by then.
>
> It is just 20 bucks.
>
> i

If you want to make a wager that will generate some interest and a bigger
pot, bet on when you expect Gunner to expire. You should be able to narrow
it down to some pretty small windows of time.

--
Ed Huntress

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:47 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:cN-dnYv9fIAjV9_WnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>> news:KIWdneCZKLLrVd_WnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>> news:ls2dnSJT36RdLd_WnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:V5idnWyXZ4bnNN_WnZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>>>> <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:9835k512aeihqhbcoi44d3f3a73q9d4qja@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:21:01 -0800, "Steve B"
>>>>>>>>> <deserttraver@fishmail.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> BTW, I'm almost finished with Krugman's _The Return of Depression
>>>> Economics and the Crisis of 2008_. It's a good, fairly quick read.
>>>
>>> Yeah, Krugman is really beating the drum for another round of
>>> spending right
>>> now.
>>> He's probably right. I don't see that consumers have any real gas in
>>> the tank and there isn't any reason for business to invest when
>>> capacity utilization is at 60%.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John R. Carroll
>>
>> If you've looked around, you see that there are quite a few economists
>> saying "don't stop now, fer chrissake." Unlike Congress, they know
>> what happened in 1937, and they don't want to see a repeat.
>>
>> They can't seem to get in into their heads that what got us out of the
>> Depression was the biggest make-work, deficit-spending, money-printing
>> stimulus of all time: World War II.
>
> I read his last editorial.
> Good sense and bad electoral politics.
> I wonder which will win out?

My money is on politics. It's my hedge fund. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: forget about human rights
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/881fad28ce05fe0f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 9:45 am
From: Patriot Games

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:27:13 -0500, Cliff
<Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html
> "... three American evangelical Christians, whose teachings about "curing"
>homosexuals have been widely discredited in the United States ..."
> " .... a bill to impose a death sentence for homosexual behavior ...."

Normal humans aren't homosexual.

Genetic mutations are homosexuals (and pedophiles).

Since when do mutants get "human" rights?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:44 am
From: Dave__67

On Jan 5, 12:45 pm, Patriot Games <Patr...@America.Com> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:27:13 -0500, Cliff
>
> <Clhuprichguessw...@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote:
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html
> > "... three American evangelical Christians, whose teachings about "curing"
> >homosexuals have been widely discredited in the United States ..."
> > " .... a bill to impose a death sentence for homosexual behavior ...."
>
> Normal humans aren't homosexual.
>
> Genetic mutations are homosexuals (and pedophiles).
>
> Since when do mutants get "human" rights?

If they'll give you rights, you have to figure they'll let just about
anyone join the club.

Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My dog.....
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/97ab214ac1ecbf57?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:10 am
From: "pdrahn@coinet.com"

On Jan 5, 7:27 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 06:51:42 -0800, Gunner Asch
>
> <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> >Realization About My Dog!
>
> >My dog sleeps about 20 hours a day. She has her food prepared for her.
> >She can eat whenever she wants, 24/7/365. Her meals are provided at no
> >cost to her. She visits the doctor once a year for her checkup and again
> >during the year if any medical needs arise.
>
> LOL Your dogs have more chance of visiting the moon than they do of
> visiting the vet once a year.
>
> >She lives in a nice neighborhood
>
> Ohmygawd that's funny! So "nice" neighborhoods these days have
> burned-down crack houses and run-down mobile homes that sell for less
> than a new Kia?
>
> > in a house that is much larger than she
> >needs but she is not required to do any upkeep. If she makes a mess,
> >someone else cleans it up. She has her choice of luxurious places to
> >sleep. She receives these accommodations absolutely free. She is living
> >like a queen and has absolutely no expenses whatsoever.
>
> Your dogs live in cages in the backyard. And are occasionally hung by
> a choker chain, AKA, stupid human tricks.
>
> >All of her costs
> >are picked up by others who go out and earn a living every day.
>
> You're earning a living every day now, huh? When did that start, and
> why did you wait so long to try it?
>
> >I was just thinking about all this and suddenly it hit me like a brick
> >in the head, "Holy S#!t, my dog is a democrat!"
>
> What an idiot.
>
> Wayne

My dog is a cat.

Paul

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:11 am
From: Frank

On 1/5/2010 9:51 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> Realization About My Dog!
>
>
>
> My dog sleeps about 20 hours a day. She has her food prepared for her.
> She can eat whenever she wants, 24/7/365. Her meals are provided at no
> cost to her. She visits the doctor once a year for her checkup and again
> during the year if any medical needs arise. For this she pays nothing
> and nothing is required of her.
>
>
>
> She lives in a nice neighborhood in a house that is much larger than she
> needs but she is not required to do any upkeep. If she makes a mess,
> someone else cleans it up. She has her choice of luxurious places to
> sleep. She receives these accommodations absolutely free. She is living
> like a queen and has absolutely no expenses whatsoever. All of her costs
> are picked up by others who go out and earn a living every day.
>
>
>
> I was just thinking about all this and suddenly it hit me like a brick
> in the head,
>
>
>
> "Holy S#!t, my dog is a democrat!"
> "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
> means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
> making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
> it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
> countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
> poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
> poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
> more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
> Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766

Obvious to see where story was going ;)

I'm reminded of story in southern plant where a plant worker had a
hunting dog called, Foreman. Great dog who was always on his game so
worker decided to give him a higher title and called him, Supervisor.

Ruined the dog. All he did afterwords was sit on his ass and bark.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:34 am
From: sittingduck

Wayne wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 06:51:42 -0800, Gunner Asch
>>I was just thinking about all this and suddenly it hit me like a brick
>>in the head, "Holy S#!t, my dog is a democrat!"
>
> What an idiot.
>
> Wayne

If dogs are Democrats, Dolphins are republicans!

From The Sunday Times
January 3, 2010
Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

Dolphins have been declared the world's second most intelligent creatures
after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they
should be treated as "non-human persons".

Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their
communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than
chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that
dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence.

The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to
keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food
or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises
die in this way each year.

"Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to
the human brain when corrected for body size," said Lori Marino, a
zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who has used magnetic
resonance imaging scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare
them with those of primates.

--
Skepticism is the highest duty and blind faith the one unpardonable sin.
- Thomas Huxley

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The next ten days
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d34cb639478cec19?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:22 am
From: "Steve B"

I'm leaving in about ten minutes to go to Vegas, San Diego, then a cruise.
I don't think the world will fall apart, but I do wonder how many people are
going to be going "social" and doing desperate things after they are now
getting notified of change of benefits, etc.

I am going to take a break from the group for a while until I get back.
Maybe longer.

Rather than all the hem hawing here amongst overeducated imbeciles and
liberals, it might be more fun to just sit back and watch the news.

We're crumbling from the top down, folks. A known terrorist's dad drops a
dime on him. He's on the lists. He buys a one way ticket with cash and no
luggage. He damn near succeeds in splattering a jet on a US runway.

For anyone to think anything other than worse is coming has his head
comfortably up his ass. It's not coming, it's here.

Enjoy. I know I am. I'm going to see just how good the food is on these
cruise ships.

TTFN

Steve, the alarmist

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:35 am
From: Ignoramus17642

Steve, if by luck they let you look at the engine room, take some
pictures. If the world does not fall apart by the time your ship
returns to port, I would love to look at the pictures of the ship and
engine.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Robbery Foiled by Armed Coffee Barista
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9cf773136eed08d6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:21 am
From: Steve Ackman

In <s7p5k59191va6836t03q9tch5a3i999trk@4ax.com>, on Mon, 04 Jan 2010
23:07:19 -0800, pyotr filipivich, phamp@mindspring.com wrote:
> Let the Record show that Steve Ackman
><steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> on or about Mon, 4 Jan 2010
> 23:48:57 -0700 did write/type or cause to appear in
> rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/January/Robbery-Foiled-by-Armed-Coffee-Barista/
>>
>> Brace yourself if you listen to the story... the
>>announcer somehow manages to pronounce "espresso"
>>with an X. <cringe>
>
> Brings a whole new meaning to the term "double shot", eh what?

Make mine an Americano. Thanks.

--
☯☯

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:30 am
From: Steve Ackman

In <1bljgd6mxn.fsf@snowball.wb.pfeifferfamily.net>, on Tue, 05 Jan 2010
00:16:52 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer, pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu wrote:
> Steve Ackman <steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> writes:
>
>> http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/January/Robbery-Foiled-by-Armed-Coffee-Barista/
>>
>> Brace yourself if you listen to the story... the
>> announcer somehow manages to pronounce "espresso"
>> with an X. <cringe>
>
> A Plymouth fan!

My sister actually has one of those.

I really don't know where they come up with some of
the model names these days. The other day I saw a
Tribute. "Huh? Tribute to what?"
I like animal names. Bronco, Mustang, Jaguar, Ram, etc.

--
☯☯

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Machining thespians: effort vs reward....
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fd96e57c11a5d013?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 5 2010 10:46 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Andrew VK3BFA" <VK3BFA@wia.org.au> wrote in message
news:f87f1441-2c2a-4aef-bc54-dfab54cf6da8@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 31 2009, 8:52 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4b3bc770$0$31265$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> > Awl --
>
> <snip>
>
> > Mebbe technology/The MindFuck are worth it after all??!!??!!
> > Now I'm all confused.....
>
> > --
> > EA, philosophically PV'd
>
> Gee, this one is simple.
>
> By 1955, we'd made all of the shit we really need.
>
> By 1970, we'd made all of the shit we really wanted.
>
> After that, we've been busy trying to come up with other shit that we
> don't
> need and don't really want, but could be made to buy because there's
> nothing
> really worthwhile to do with solitary selfs, and buying shit keeps us from
> thinking about it. We find that we can get it pretty cheap, because people
> all over the world thought that we must have the right idea, because it
> looked like we were having one hell of a party, and they're doing the same
> thing we did, only 30 or 40 years later. And they need to sell *their*
> useless shit to somebody, too. So we buy it.
>
> Along the way we realized that we were so busy making shit that we needed,
> then wanted, and then didn't really want that we never figured out why we
> were making all of that shit, and what we'd do with our solitary selfs
> once
> we'd made it. We had brushed off art, literature, architecture,
> philosophy,
> single-malt whiskey, and all those other things the Greeks used to do with
> their solitary selfs when they faced a similar problem. And they didn't
> even
> have Chevys and Fords!
>
> But we're making up for lost time with the mass-produced, sugar-coated,
> violence- and sexually-perverted substitutes, like Brittany Spears, the
> NFL,
> 3D movies, and fruit-flavored alcopops.
>
> That's the state of the union. What shall we do next? Maybe we can take up
> extreme skateboarding and hacking government computers.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

>Hang on Ed - Mr PV did a really good RANT, and you come along and
>explain it in logical terms!. Thats not nice. Go with the feeling - we
>all know SOMETHING is wrong, and its beyond fixing as its gotten
>totally out of control. (If it was simple, it would have been fixed by
>now). So when enough people get really pissed about it, then there
>will be another revolution and we can start again - but, as PV says,
>there is an inate tendency in humans for someone to want to be in
>charge of everyone else, so the cycle repeats. Stuffed if I know what
>the solution is, try to have as little involvement as possible with
>all the consumerist crap but I know I am kidding myself to a large
>degree.
>
>And I reckon the CD player was in the Good Idea category - someone
>else said it first, but I think its pretty cool you can get all the
>Bach sonatas for 20 bucks....

There was an atricle recently about how the CD player is a thing of the
past. That means they'll be coming in here on RCM, any day now. <g>

Rants are good, but they're like Chinese food therapy: They just leave you
hungry an hour later. Here's how to deal with the "something is wrong"
feeling:

Throw your cell phone away.

Then throw away anything on your TV that gives you more than local news
shows (if yours are like ours, that means all air time will be consumed with
fires, murders, rapes, and various perversions. Who needs sitcoms and drama
when you have the real thing?)

Don't read newspapers.

Confine your computer activity to word processing, e-mail, and spreadsheets.

Normal mental health will be restored within a few months. Then, get outside
more and talk to the neighbors, if you can drag them away from the devices
listed above. <g>

--
Ed Huntress

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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