twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 11 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Right-Wing Populism Gets Help From Democrats
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/5626117fcdfece73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:12 am
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Jan 22, 6:30 am, Hawke <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:

> The other problem is that asking the public what it wants is nonsense.
> They public doesn't know what we should do about health care. The
> decisions about how to change the system to one that works and costs
> less should be made by experts on the subject not by a vote of the
> public.

The decisions about how to change the system needs to be done by the
public. The experts should present ways to change the system and
argue why their way is best. But the public should always be the
people that decide.

> Even though it has been shown all over the world that
> the government run systems do better than the for profit ones they won't
> even think of changing to that kind of system. So how do you let them
> have a say when their position is that we won't allow anything but a
> free market system?

How do you prevent anyone from having a say? Do you want to eliminate
democracy?

How do you work with people who won't make any
> concessions? That's what lies at the heart of the problem. There is no
> way to compromise with the position the republicans are taking. You do
> it their way or they kill the whole thing. So how do you work something
> out with people like that?

>
> Hawke

You convince the public that your way is best. You don't craft a bill
that most of Congress has not read and tell everyone this is a great
plan and the only way to go. Once you have the hearts and minds of
the American public on your side, the rest is easy.

Dan

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:31 am
From: "clarkmagnuson@gmail.com"

From C-Span 1995:
Politics can be broken into 4 quadrants, and listed in order of
numbers of Americans:
1) Conservative: less government intervention financially, more
government intervention morally
2) Libertarian: less government intervention financially, less
government intervention morally
3) Populist: more government intervention financially, more government
intervention morally
4) Liberal: more government intervention financially, less government
intervention morally

The rankings are not close.
Conservatives way outnumber Libertarians.
Libertarians way outnumber Populists.
Populists way outnumber Liberals.

My reaction to this ordering:
1) The reason liberals are over represented in government, is because
they are over represented in media and education.
2) Persons in the same quadrant as me often have a very different
perspective, because of a third dimension, "Do you believe in
conspiracies?"

What does it all mean?
1) The above quoted article misuses the term "populist".

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:34 am
From: Stuart Wheaton

Buerste wrote:
>
> "Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
> news:hjagq3$h9d$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>> Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:56:46 -0800, sittingduck <duck@spamherelots.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Key provisions - such as a mandate requiring individuals to buy private
>>>> health insurance without a public option - are giveaways to mega-
>>>> corporations on a scale so vast that it boggles the mind.
>>>
>>> Yup, this health bill is naught but a total surrender to corporate
>>> "health" monopolies. Without a public option it must fail.
>>>
>>
>> You're right. The current bill was a piece of crap with it mandating
>> we all buy insurance we can't pay for and then not giving us a choice
>> of a government run system. All it did was provide the insurance
>> companies with millions of more customers.
>>
>> Better to say the republicans stopped health care reform. Lay the
>> blame for failure on them, let things continue to fester, and leave it
>> to the republicans to come up with a solution to the problems because
>> they won't let the Dems fix things.
>>
>> Apparently, things haven't gotten bad enough for the public to
>> actually start screaming at the republicans to allow the reforms to
>> take place. Millions of Americans will have to suffer some more. If
>> they don't they won't force the politicians to make the changes. Look
>> at Massachusetts, they have a statewide health system where 97% of
>> people are already covered, so they didn't bother worrying about the
>> rest of the country. It'll have to get a lot worse before 97% of the
>> whole country has coverage. That's what I love about our system.
>> Nothing changes until it gets so bad that the place is about to have a
>> complete break down. It's not what one would call an efficient form of
>> government. Unfortunately, the founding fathers were so afraid of
>> government being tyrannical that they made one that barely functions
>> until it's on the verge of collapse.
>>
>>
>> Hawke
>
> Everybody wants HCR...just not where whole States and Unions are excused
> from paying for it. The Democrats disgusted the citizens with their
> open bribes and back-room deals and arrogance. Most of the country is
> against what the DEMOCRATS want. It's not just about what the fringe
> left wants, the rest of the country should have a say too.

All that it would have taken to derail the special deal for Nelson was
to have a few R's vote for cloture, and then against the Bill.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:00 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"dcaster@krl.org" wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 6:30 am, Hawke <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>
> > The other problem is that asking the public what it wants is nonsense.
> > They public doesn't know what we should do about health care. The
> > decisions about how to change the system to one that works and costs
> > less should be made by experts on the subject not by a vote of the
> > public.
>
> The decisions about how to change the system needs to be done by the
> public. The experts should present ways to change the system and
> argue why their way is best. But the public should always be the
> people that decide.
>
> > Even though it has been shown all over the world that
> > the government run systems do better than the for profit ones they won't
> > even think of changing to that kind of system. So how do you let them
> > have a say when their position is that we won't allow anything but a
> > free market system?
>
> How do you prevent anyone from having a say? Do you want to eliminate
> democracy?

Alan Grayson (D, FL) wants to take away free speech:

http://www.mycongressmanisnuts.com/

Hawkie would love this democrat ID10T.

> How do you work with people who won't make any
> > concessions? That's what lies at the heart of the problem. There is no
> > way to compromise with the position the republicans are taking. You do
> > it their way or they kill the whole thing. So how do you work something
> > out with people like that?
>
> >
> > Hawke
>
> You convince the public that your way is best. You don't craft a bill
> that most of Congress has not read and tell everyone this is a great
> plan and the only way to go. Once you have the hearts and minds of
> the American public on your side, the rest is easy.
>
> Dan

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cutting NPT threads on PVC pipe
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e6be12ed6c496542?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:14 am
From: Ned Simmons

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:45:13 -0600, Richard J Kinch
<kinch@truetex.com> wrote:

>My swimming pool pump quit, and the new one is just slightly longer, so to
>connect it in the space available, I need what in steel pipe you would call
>a threaded nipple, except in 2-inch PVC pipe. That is, instead of gluing a
>PVC male adapter, which would add too much length. Swimming pool plumbing
>has to be all plastic due to the chemistry of the water.
>
>Now Home Depot threads steel pipe, with a nice powered pipe threader on the
>plumbing pipe aisle, but when I asked them to thread some PVC they
>practically called me a pervert. They said the only way to get threads on
>a PVC pipe was to glue on a male adapter, and you can't thread PVC pipe.
>
>However quite a few bits of the PVC pool plumbing appear to have been
>threaded on-site. And interestingly, the classic Ridgid 12R pipe threader
>has replacement dies specifically for PVC:
>
> http://ridgid.com/Tools/Hand-Threader-Die-Heads/
>
>So is threading PVC pipe an unnatural abomination like the top industry
>experts at Home Depot, in their orange aprons, assert? Or just not often
>worth the labor versus a glued fitting?

All the threaded PVC I've seen in process piping was schedule 80. I've
never witnessed PVC being threaded on site, but I'm not aware of any
reason it can't be as long as the pipe wall is heavy enough. I wonder
if the thread form is modified to account for the PVC's physical
properties? Threaded PVC joints are more prone to leaks than
metal-metal joints and must be made up carefully to avoid leaks.
Fittings with metal inserts are available to minimize the problem.

--
Ned Simmons

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rotometals
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/11f31a0593dc506b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:18 am
From: Doug White

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in
news:4b58f6b5$0$4975$607ed4bc@cv.net:

>
> "Doug White" <gwhite@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns9D07C232A3F49gwhitealummitedu@69.16.186.50...
>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in
>> news:4b58ea5a$0$5008$607ed4bc@cv.net:
>>
>>>
>>> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>> news:xsCdndimwZqNfMXWnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b57ef60$0$4974$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:IJGdnQew3peSesrWnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4b57b8df$0$4976$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4b57b5ec$0$10329$ec3e2dad@unlimited.usenetmonster.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve Lusardi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Look for Linotype, it makes brilliant bullets. Check with
>>>>>>>>> newspaper printers and ask them how they dispose of their
>>>>>>>>> waste, you won't regret it. The bullets will typically cast
>>>>>>>>> about 8% lighter than pure lead. They can be used to 1800FPS
>>>>>>>>> without gas checks and not cause barrel leading. If I remember
>>>>>>>>> correctly, lead is around 9 or 10 on the Brinnel scale and
>>>>>>>>> Linotype is about 28/29, which is considerably harder.
>>>>>>>>> Linotype bullets are much better penetrators and do not
>>>>>>>>> deflect off window glass like lead bullets do. Don't ask how I
>>>>>>>>> know that. Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been out of the printing biz for a decade or two, but does
>>>>>>>> anyone use Linotype anymore? Certainly no newspaper I knew of
>>>>>>>> 20 years ago did,
>>>>>>>> they all use offset web presses with AL plates. The only place
>>>>>>>> using Linotype back then was a tiny shop that mostly did
>>>>>>>> numbering and other specialty stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt if there is a working Linotype machine in most states in
>>>>>>> the country. I don't know of a single magazine that uses it for
>>>>>>> anything; the last newspaper I knew of that used it was over 20
>>>>>>> years ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The offset and rotogravure presses had plates that were burned
>>>>>>> from hard-type originals for a long while, so Linotype was still
>>>>>>> around, to make the "hot type" masters. But that's all been
>>>>>>> converted to "cold type" -- computer-generated galleys. And
>>>>>>> now, most volume printing is done without any galleys at all.
>>>>>>> It's "direct to plate" computer imaging.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone still has a source of Linotype metal, I'd like to
>>>>>>> know where it's coming from.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple of companies I worked with still used Linotype. Said it
>>>>>> was easier / cheaper and better for small changes in books they
>>>>>> printed each year. They printed tax guides as one part of their
>>>>>> product line and lots of pages rarely changed. Somewhere I still
>>>>>> have my name cast in a linotype machine there. But as to metal
>>>>>> work, they are the bomb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Man, there's somebody who doesn't believe in new technology. <g>
>>>>> Are they printing the books on letterpress? Or are they using the
>>>>> Linotype to make galleys for offset printing?
>>>>>
>>>>> If it's the latter, here's a secret you might pass on to them: Any
>>>>> one of us can do exactly the same thing, and produce the same
>>>>> results, with a home computer and a decent laser printer today. No
>>>>> loss of quality. No loss of anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> If, on the other hand, they're printing by letterpress, then holy
>>>>> hell...I can't imagine how it's easier or cheaper. Letterpresses
>>>>> are used today for things like fancy invitations and wedding
>>>>> announcements. And a few hobbyists have them, but they set type by
>>>>> hand, rather than use Linotype. A Linotype machine is about the
>>>>> size of three refrigerators and looks like the giant insect from
>>>>> "Alien."
>>>>>
>>>>> The fuzzy serifs do have a kind of nostalgic quality, though. <g>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, they have banks of pages in linotype. So if there is only a 1
>>>> or 2 line change in a chapter, easy to change, and great print.
>>>> But if they have to change a whole chapter then they use other than
>>>> the Linotype. But the Linotype produces the same pages for years
>>>> with very good quality. And these are expensive books. They may
>>>> have changed now, but in 1990, they said it was much cheaper and
>>>> better with the linotype. The use offset printing.
>>>
>>> Hmm. We're not communicating. d8-) However, it's a side issue, so I
>>> won't belabor it.
>>>
>>> My guess is that you're talking about hand-setting type, not
>>> Linotype. Linotype machines are BIG, expensive suckers used for
>>> setting large masses of type quickly -- pages and pages. It has a
>>> keyboard and it mechanically drops type into slots, making a hell of
>>> a racket.
>>>
>>> Hand-setting is done in "sticks," something I did in high school,
>>> when I worked one summer for an old-fashioned printer called
>>> Princeton Photoprocess. It produces the same end result as Linotype,
>>> but it's more appropriate for smaller jobs, up to a few hundred
>>> words. No equipment is needed -- it's all labor, but it's trivial
>>> for just a line or two of type.
>>>
>>> In any case, any Linotype metal that's available today must be from
>>> someone's ancient hoard, or freshly alloyed to the old Linotype
>>> standard alloy. That's more likely.
>>
>> My cousin runs a one-man print shop on Cape Cod that specializes in
>> odd jobs that other printers won't (or can't) handle. Things like
>> sequentially numbered tickets. He still has a Linotype machine, but
>> he seldom has a job that makes it worth firing up. He's trying to
>> retire, but hasn't found any takers.
>>
>> Doug White
>
> Selling a Linotype machine today is about like trying to sell a
> numerically controlled lathe that uses pneumatic logic. d8-)

He's trying to sell the whole business, and the Linotype machine is just
a part of the deal. Unless he can find a museum that wants it, it's
probably going to get scrapped. There's LOT of metal in one of those
things. Most of his gear is museum stuff anyway.

Doug White

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:57 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Doug White" <gwhite@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9D085EB016684gwhitealummitedu@69.16.186.50...
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in
> news:4b58f6b5$0$4975$607ed4bc@cv.net:
>
>>
>> "Doug White" <gwhite@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9D07C232A3F49gwhitealummitedu@69.16.186.50...
>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in
>>> news:4b58ea5a$0$5008$607ed4bc@cv.net:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:xsCdndimwZqNfMXWnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4b57ef60$0$4974$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:IJGdnQew3peSesrWnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4b57b8df$0$4976$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4b57b5ec$0$10329$ec3e2dad@unlimited.usenetmonster.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Lusardi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Look for Linotype, it makes brilliant bullets. Check with
>>>>>>>>>> newspaper printers and ask them how they dispose of their
>>>>>>>>>> waste, you won't regret it. The bullets will typically cast
>>>>>>>>>> about 8% lighter than pure lead. They can be used to 1800FPS
>>>>>>>>>> without gas checks and not cause barrel leading. If I remember
>>>>>>>>>> correctly, lead is around 9 or 10 on the Brinnel scale and
>>>>>>>>>> Linotype is about 28/29, which is considerably harder.
>>>>>>>>>> Linotype bullets are much better penetrators and do not
>>>>>>>>>> deflect off window glass like lead bullets do. Don't ask how I
>>>>>>>>>> know that. Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've been out of the printing biz for a decade or two, but does
>>>>>>>>> anyone use Linotype anymore? Certainly no newspaper I knew of
>>>>>>>>> 20 years ago did,
>>>>>>>>> they all use offset web presses with AL plates. The only place
>>>>>>>>> using Linotype back then was a tiny shop that mostly did
>>>>>>>>> numbering and other specialty stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt if there is a working Linotype machine in most states in
>>>>>>>> the country. I don't know of a single magazine that uses it for
>>>>>>>> anything; the last newspaper I knew of that used it was over 20
>>>>>>>> years ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The offset and rotogravure presses had plates that were burned
>>>>>>>> from hard-type originals for a long while, so Linotype was still
>>>>>>>> around, to make the "hot type" masters. But that's all been
>>>>>>>> converted to "cold type" -- computer-generated galleys. And
>>>>>>>> now, most volume printing is done without any galleys at all.
>>>>>>>> It's "direct to plate" computer imaging.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If someone still has a source of Linotype metal, I'd like to
>>>>>>>> know where it's coming from.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A couple of companies I worked with still used Linotype. Said it
>>>>>>> was easier / cheaper and better for small changes in books they
>>>>>>> printed each year. They printed tax guides as one part of their
>>>>>>> product line and lots of pages rarely changed. Somewhere I still
>>>>>>> have my name cast in a linotype machine there. But as to metal
>>>>>>> work, they are the bomb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Man, there's somebody who doesn't believe in new technology. <g>
>>>>>> Are they printing the books on letterpress? Or are they using the
>>>>>> Linotype to make galleys for offset printing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it's the latter, here's a secret you might pass on to them: Any
>>>>>> one of us can do exactly the same thing, and produce the same
>>>>>> results, with a home computer and a decent laser printer today. No
>>>>>> loss of quality. No loss of anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If, on the other hand, they're printing by letterpress, then holy
>>>>>> hell...I can't imagine how it's easier or cheaper. Letterpresses
>>>>>> are used today for things like fancy invitations and wedding
>>>>>> announcements. And a few hobbyists have them, but they set type by
>>>>>> hand, rather than use Linotype. A Linotype machine is about the
>>>>>> size of three refrigerators and looks like the giant insect from
>>>>>> "Alien."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fuzzy serifs do have a kind of nostalgic quality, though. <g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they have banks of pages in linotype. So if there is only a 1
>>>>> or 2 line change in a chapter, easy to change, and great print.
>>>>> But if they have to change a whole chapter then they use other than
>>>>> the Linotype. But the Linotype produces the same pages for years
>>>>> with very good quality. And these are expensive books. They may
>>>>> have changed now, but in 1990, they said it was much cheaper and
>>>>> better with the linotype. The use offset printing.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm. We're not communicating. d8-) However, it's a side issue, so I
>>>> won't belabor it.
>>>>
>>>> My guess is that you're talking about hand-setting type, not
>>>> Linotype. Linotype machines are BIG, expensive suckers used for
>>>> setting large masses of type quickly -- pages and pages. It has a
>>>> keyboard and it mechanically drops type into slots, making a hell of
>>>> a racket.
>>>>
>>>> Hand-setting is done in "sticks," something I did in high school,
>>>> when I worked one summer for an old-fashioned printer called
>>>> Princeton Photoprocess. It produces the same end result as Linotype,
>>>> but it's more appropriate for smaller jobs, up to a few hundred
>>>> words. No equipment is needed -- it's all labor, but it's trivial
>>>> for just a line or two of type.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, any Linotype metal that's available today must be from
>>>> someone's ancient hoard, or freshly alloyed to the old Linotype
>>>> standard alloy. That's more likely.
>>>
>>> My cousin runs a one-man print shop on Cape Cod that specializes in
>>> odd jobs that other printers won't (or can't) handle. Things like
>>> sequentially numbered tickets. He still has a Linotype machine, but
>>> he seldom has a job that makes it worth firing up. He's trying to
>>> retire, but hasn't found any takers.
>>>
>>> Doug White
>>
>> Selling a Linotype machine today is about like trying to sell a
>> numerically controlled lathe that uses pneumatic logic. d8-)
>
> He's trying to sell the whole business, and the Linotype machine is just
> a part of the deal. Unless he can find a museum that wants it, it's
> probably going to get scrapped. There's LOT of metal in one of those
> things. Most of his gear is museum stuff anyway.
>
> Doug White

Like old machine tools, Linotypes and other old printing equipment have a
hobby/museum following. A publishing consultant I worked with years ago
travelled all over the world collecting sets of antique type, and he had a
little flat-bed press that he used to make replicas of old printing,
hand-setting the type. Apparently he was part of an international hobby
group that was very serious about it.

However, there were a LOT of Linotype machines around, and lots of them are
sitting in warehouses now, or they've been scrapped. The new technologies
swept through the industry like a tsunami -- something like the way that
wire EDM stood the diemaking business on its head, and at about the same
time: the mid-'70s. Finding a buyer for that old printing equipment must be
tough.

It's not something that artists would pick up, the way they bought up
lithographers' stones or engraving equipment when they became obsolete.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A Collection of Miniature Machine Tools
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c68c7d503bc2f95b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:22 am
From: "Robert Swinney"

Thanx Wild Bill. Looking at the small stuff was refreshing after working on the brake on my 13 x 40
MSC lathe. My arms and hands ache from reaching into the stand to get at the brake assembly. Back
aches from getting up and down on the concrete floor looking for a "fit" among regular and metric
wrenches.

Bob Swinney
"Wild_Bill" <wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9Kc6n.112319$IU1.69225@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com...

Not all machine tools are big (from the webpage)

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/oldmachines.htm

--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Repackaging Wingers
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/97f9854a3cb5098c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:38 am
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Jan 22, 1:53 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:

> Thanks. Were you a civics teacher? <g> It's called a propaganda machine; the
> ideas pressed with the most money win.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

No, but I took civics, did you? <g> You just have no faith in the
public.

So you think that Obama should have accepted campaign limits? You
think that Obama won because he raised the most money? So you are
against the free market place of ideas? So you want censorship?

Dan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 7:18 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

<dcaster@krl.org> wrote in message
news:0d86993c-7c69-456c-bf9b-6cf2af486b02@x9g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 22, 1:53 am, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:

> Thanks. Were you a civics teacher? <g> It's called a propaganda machine;
> the
> ideas pressed with the most money win.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

>No, but I took civics, did you? <g> You just have no faith in the
>public.

I have faith in the public. I also have faith in the power of propaganda. It
used to pay my bills.

Like investment banking, it's something that has to be regulated and
controlled, or they'll run all over you. Advertising is a positive and
useful force that, left on its own, will transmogrify into a cancer.

>
>So you think that Obama should have accepted campaign limits? You
>think that Obama won because he raised the most money? So you are
>against the free market place of ideas? So you want censorship?

That's quite a string of non-sequiturs, Dan. d8-)

Yes, I think the candidates in 2008 should have stuck to campaign limits.
Obama harnessed a new way of accumulating money that sounded like it was all
sweetness and light -- tens of millions in the form of little contributions
gathered through the Internet -- but it's still a hammer that beats down
fair debate, no matter where the money comes from.

Whether he won because of the money is questionable. Anecdotes are not very
useful for analysis. It's the difference between a correlation coefficient
of 0.7 and a coefficient of 1.0. It doesn't work all the time. It just works
*enough* of the time that advertisers spend a couple of hundred billion
dollars per year on it.

The free marketplace of ideas and advertising, in the real world, have
little to do with each other.

Censorship is controlling what can be said. Campaign limits are for avoiding
having our representative democracy become a plutocracy.

Advertising works. It's an important element of the golden rule: The one
with the gold, rules.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Future of US Kids Making Stuff...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/253bc5f30a53bb1b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:54 am
From: Frnak McKenney

On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:27:41 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins <kb1dal@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 1:11 pm, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:33:10 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Jan 20, 11:25 am, Frnak McKenney
>>
>> > Or you can use two irons, or with practice one iron moved quickly from
>> > side to side. It works for me, at least. Resistors stand this abuse
>> > better than capacitors.
>>
>> With my eyesight and dexterity a fast-moving iron is a health and
>> environmental hazard. <grin!>
>
> Oh, you are an engineer.

No, but my father and sister are. I started fixing radios and TVs
during high school, but I'm a Math major (New College didn't offer a
degree in any kind of Engineering); then during my college years I
got seduced by the Dark Side (software). <grin!>

>> For example, here are a few from a magazine ad:
>>
>> $80 Sirocco SMD Rework Unit
>> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9445

[...] (other CS items clipped)

>> I have a plethora of options (possibly two plethoras <grin!>); it's
>> just hard to sort through them to find a low-ish priced unit
>> suitable for learning and occasional use.
>>
>> I'm tempted to try building one of the homebrew units I listed in a
>> previous post.
>> Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
>
> In the early 90's I checked out several larger units for my lab at
> MITRE. We needed a heater underneath for multilayer boards with inner
> power planes and thought we needed a wide selection of nozzles for
> large parts like these:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TQFP
> usually with 0.5mm lead pitch.
>
> After many demos and a field trip I found out that
>
> * I could use the machines better than the salesmen, meaning that
> their recommendations and performance claims meant little. OTOH I'm
> not a good salesman.
>
> * If the board wasn't designed with some clearance around large parts,
> removing them often wrecked the board. I used dead Mac hard disk
> controller cards, not meant to be repaired and thus more of a test.

Understood. I've got some old (and presumably dead) motherboards
and adapters I'm keeping for the same purpose. I suspect I'll need
_lots_ of practice. <grin!>

> * Hot tweezers were better for 2-lead components. Some of the parts
> are little bigger than salt grains and they blow away.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soldering_a_0402.jpg
>
> * Manual dexterity and vision are more important than details of the
> desoldering tool, except that a stiff clumsy cable can make hand-held
> use almost impossible. Those have a stand and more heat and air,
> though.

I'm still working on that one. It's the irregualr (uncorrectable)
astigmatism that causes the most problem, but if I magnify what I'm
working on enough that compensates.

> That leaves SOT-23 transistors which a single nozzle can remove.
> Nozzles for SOICs would probably be useful too.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-outline_integrated_circuit

Yup.

> I've only had to remove large ICs because they had died, and then
> cutting the leads with fine-pointed flush cutters worked better.
>
> A vacuum pickup is nice if it seals well but needle probes are enough
> to flip the part away. I like the manual eyedropper type better than
> the vacuum hose ones for the lighter feel. YMMV

That's useful to know. Thanks.

> If you can't remove a resistor with two irons you might find those
> tools hard to use as well. No hot air rework tool I've seen was really
> easy to operate. You can't tell when the last pin has melted and can
> easily overheat the board or lift a pad.

The BK5000 unit here:

>> $100 (sale) BlackJack SolderWerks Hot Air System w Soldering Iron
>> & Mechanical Arm
>> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9752

offers both an iron and hot air. There's a one-day HAM fest coming
up here in Richmond in a few weeks (www.frostfest.com), so I'll see
if there are any really good deals there before deciding.

Thanks for all the advice.

Frank
--
A science is any discipline in which a fool of this generation can
go beyond the point reached by a genius of the last generation.
-- Max Gluckman
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:03 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 2:02 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > ...
> > I removed a lot of SMD ICs with solder wick. Clean most of the solder
> > off the pins, and use a very small tipped dental pick to see which leads
> > were loose. Then touch the ones that were, with a hot soldering iron and
> > lift them before the solder cools. I could pull a 288 pin IC in about a
> > minute, clean up the pads in about 30 seconds, and solder a new chip in
> > by hand in, in about 90 seconds without any solder bridges. It took
> > longer to clean the board than to change a chip.
>
> Have you tried to teach that technique to others?

Yes, but they all wanted a hot air rework station and wouldn't pay
attention. Now, I don't know if I can even hold on to the tools long
enough, and I am out of practice. I did my last one on Sept. 7, 2001,
the day I was laid off at Microdyne for their Ocala plant closure.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT-Scientists Admit GW blunders
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/26f549605e8cd212?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 7:23 am
From: "clarkmagnuson@gmail.com"

On Jan 19, 3:05 pm, Hawke <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
The truth is if you believe
> them then you are just as dumb as the people who believed the tobacco
> company executives who said tobacco was harmless. It's amazing that you
> can't see the producers of pollution have financial interests in lying
> to you.
..
Unless you start up with your mind made up.
> You've been snookered by the polluters lies, and they are good at it.
>
> Hawke

There is a perfect parallel between the tobacco industry cover up and
the global warming cover up.

When I was in college in 1971, we were taught that by 2000, 20% of the
world's population would be dead from pollution.
By 1982 I had built a super insulated solar home, worked like a slave
in my 10,000 sq ft organic garden, recycled everything before public
recycling was available, and built noisy wind mills.
I was snookered, alright, by subversive professors.
Now I am ashamed I fell for that crap.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 7:55 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

John Husvar wrote:
>
> During an abandon ship drill in WW2, my father related, the Marines were
> being instructed how to jump from the deck and protect themselves from
> debris in the water. One grizzled old Gunnery Sergeant seemed singularly
> unimpressed and uninterested. The instructor berated him for his
> inattention and asked him how he expected to survive having a ship shot
> out from under him.
>
> He replied: "I'll do just like I did twice last war. I'll wait 'til the
> deck's awash and just step off."

That's ok if it sinks slow, and level. If it doesn't, you'll be
pulled under and you may drown. The bigger the hunk of steel, the better
the chance you won't make it.

My relatives who served in the Navy were mostly submariners, so their
chances were very poor if their sub got hit.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cleaning up the shop
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/6ff81a03e8e9a9e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jan 21 2010 10:22 pm
From: cavelamb

Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:33:19 -0800, pyotr filipivich
> <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net> on or
>> about Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:42:00 -0800 did write/type or cause to
>> appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 02:01:23 -0800, pyotr filipivich
>>> <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Let the Record show that Beryl <fourl@road.net> on or about Wed, 20
>>>> Jan 2010 22:52:04 -0800 did write/type or cause to appear in
>>>> rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>>>> This is what Ive spent the last couple days doing..then it flooded.
>>>>>> Shrug. Only a couple inches deep though as it passed through
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before...
>>>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/GunnersShop#
>>>>> What a dump!
>>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/GunnersShop#5419255385273545042
>>>> Arrghhh! This is not to be tolerated - he left a chisel leaning
>>>> on the cutting edge! I just hope it's not on metal or concrete. Not
>>>> so bad if it is resting on wood.
>>>>
>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/GunnersShop#5410170060566929394
>>> Yeegads! You are correct! Ill remedy it immediately!
>>>
>>> Rush!!
>>> Zoom!
>>> Slam!
>>> griblegriblegribleglot!
>>> Slam!
>>> stompstompstomp
>>>
>>> Whew! Thanks dude! I almost lost the edge on that thing!
>>>
>>> Well done Sir..well done indeed!!!
>> One notices the things one is most familiar with.
>>
>> I have a collection of photos taken at tech school "What's wrong
>> with this picture?" Pop can held in the chuck by the rim, wrenches
>> left in the chuck - all the things the instructor said we shouldn't
>> do.
>> -
>> pyotr filipivich
>> We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
>> It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
>
>
> So how should a pop can be held in a chuck?

gently!

> Being aluminum, one assumes that even a 6 jaw would be a bit much, ?
>
> Gunner
>

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:09 am
From: "Steve B"

"Gunner Asch" <gunner@lightspeed.net> wrote
>
> Ive since heard that such misdiagnosis from them, when you come in
> without insurance...didnt even see a doctor..but a DA...is fairly
> common.
>
>
> Gunner

Looks like those DA's are getting as expensive as MD's.

Steve

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:12 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

cavelamb wrote:
>
> Gunner Asch wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:33:19 -0800, pyotr filipivich
> > <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net> on or
> >> about Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:42:00 -0800 did write/type or cause to
> >> appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
> >>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 02:01:23 -0800, pyotr filipivich
> >>> <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Let the Record show that Beryl <fourl@road.net> on or about Wed, 20
> >>>> Jan 2010 22:52:04 -0800 did write/type or cause to appear in
> >>>> rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
> >>>>> Gunner Asch wrote:
> >>>>>> This is what Ive spent the last couple days doing..then it flooded.
> >>>>>> Shrug. Only a couple inches deep though as it passed through
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Before...
> >>>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/GunnersShop#
> >>>>> What a dump!
> >>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/GunnersShop#5419255385273545042
> >>>> Arrghhh! This is not to be tolerated - he left a chisel leaning
> >>>> on the cutting edge! I just hope it's not on metal or concrete. Not
> >>>> so bad if it is resting on wood.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/GunnersShop#5410170060566929394
> >>> Yeegads! You are correct! Ill remedy it immediately!
> >>>
> >>> Rush!!
> >>> Zoom!
> >>> Slam!
> >>> griblegriblegribleglot!
> >>> Slam!
> >>> stompstompstomp
> >>>
> >>> Whew! Thanks dude! I almost lost the edge on that thing!
> >>>
> >>> Well done Sir..well done indeed!!!
> >> One notices the things one is most familiar with.
> >>
> >> I have a collection of photos taken at tech school "What's wrong
> >> with this picture?" Pop can held in the chuck by the rim, wrenches
> >> left in the chuck - all the things the instructor said we shouldn't
> >> do.
> >> -
> >> pyotr filipivich
> >> We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
> >> It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
> >
> >
> > So how should a pop can be held in a chuck?
>
> gently!

And unopened.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: tea partiers have no clue
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2c644d95a02f628e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 7:42 am
From: columbiaaccidentinvestigation

On Jan 21, 8:45 pm, Bawana <mrbawan...@yahoo.com> wrote" your delusion
knows no bounds. Plus, you're incredibly boring. you can't show "where
in the constitution I can read up on this social safety net that you
keep referring to".Keeerist, you're pathetic It's not there, you
inspid retard""

show where the founding fathers commented on the United States v.
Butler. (laughing you cant, you retard, now shut up)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art1frag29_user.html
Cornell University Law School
CRS Annotated Constitution
SPENDING FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 7:59 am
From: mrbawana2u

On Jan 22, 12:32 am, columbiaaccidentinvestigation
<columbiaaccidentinvestigat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 8:45 pm, Bawana <mrbawan...@yahoo.com> wrote" your delusion
> knows no bounds.
>
> > Plus, you're incredibly boring. you can't show "where in the constitution I can read up on this
> > social safety net that you keep referring to".Keeerist, you're pathetic It's not there, you inspid retard"
>
> show where the founding fathers commented on the United States v.
> Butler. (laughing you cant, you retard, now shut up)http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art1frag29_user.html
> Cornell University Law School
> CRS Annotated Constitution
> SPENDING FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE

hehe
i knew you couldn't do it, you insipid retard.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 7:59 am
From: mrbawana2u

On Jan 22, 10:42 am, columbiaaccidentinvestigation
<columbiaaccidentinvestigat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 8:45 pm, Bawana <mrbawan...@yahoo.com> wrote" your delusion
> knows no bounds. Plus, you're incredibly boring. you can't show "where
> in the constitution I can read up on this social safety net that you
> keep referring to".Keeerist, you're pathetic It's not there, you
> inspid retard""
>
> show where the founding fathers commented on the United States v.
> Butler. (laughing you cant, you retard, now shut up)http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art1frag29_user.html
> Cornell University Law School
> CRS Annotated Constitution
> SPENDING FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE

hehe
i knew you couldn't do it, you insipid retard.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:14 am
From: T. Keating

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:59:20 -0800 (PST), mrbawana2u
<mrbawana2u@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 22, 10:42 am, columbiaaccidentinvestigation
><columbiaaccidentinvestigat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 21, 8:45 pm, Bawana <mrbawan...@yahoo.com> wrote" your delusion
>> knows no bounds. Plus, you're incredibly boring. you can't show "where
>> in the constitution I can read up on this social safety net that you
>> keep referring to".Keeerist, you're pathetic It's not there, you
>> inspid retard""
>>
>> show where the founding fathers commented on the United States v.
>> Butler. (laughing you cant, you retard, now shut up)http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art1frag29_user.html
>> Cornell University Law School
>> CRS Annotated Constitution
>> SPENDING FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE
>
>hehe
>i knew you couldn't do it, you insipid retard.

But.. he answered your question, but you failed to read... Mr.
Duces..

First paragraph of the US constitution..

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the..."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/constitution/text.html

Spells out that power very clearly in the "insure domestic
Tranquilly", and "promote the general Welfare" clauses.

One can't have a civilized society when a significant portion of the
population is near starvation. I.E.. Look at the countries in Africa
as an example, those once civilized societies devolved into feudalism
(war loads), anarchy, and genocide.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:16 am
From: T. Keating

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:59:20 -0800 (PST), mrbawana2u
<mrbawana2u@gmail.com> wrote:

But.. he answered your question, but you failed to read... Mr.
Dufus..

First paragraph of the US constitution..

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/constitution/text.html

Spells out that power very clearly in the "insure domestic
Tranquilly", and "promote the general Welfare" clauses.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:51 am
From: T. Keating

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:59:13 -0800 (PST), mrbawana2u
<mrbawana2u@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 22, 12:32�am, columbiaaccidentinvestigation
><columbiaaccidentinvestigat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 21, 8:45�pm, Bawana <mrbawan...@yahoo.com> wrote" your delusion
>> knows no bounds.
>>
>> > Plus, you're incredibly boring. you can't show "where in the constitution I can read up on this
>> > social safety net that you keep referring to".Keeerist, you're pathetic �It's not there, you inspid retard"
>>
>> show where the founding fathers commented on the United States v.
>> Butler. (laughing you cant, you retard, now shut up)http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art1frag29_user.html
>> Cornell University Law School
>> CRS Annotated Constitution
>> SPENDING FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE
>
>hehe
>i knew you couldn't do it, you insipid retard.

But.. he answered your question, but you failed to read... Mr.
Dufus..

First paragraph of the US constitution..

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/constitution/text.html

Spells out that power very clearly in the "insure domestic
Tranquilly", and "promote the general Welfare" clauses.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rethugs
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/6c361e8a46d24527?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:29 am
From: "bj"

The current Rethug party has lost its ideological basis for
existence.
- It is NOT fiscally responsible............Pailin's bridge to nowhere,
McCain's pork barrel spending and lies
- It is NOT ethically honorable.............Toe-tapping in the men room,
support for Teabaggers
- It has started wars based on lies..........Dumb-ya and Dickless lied and
4000 of our troops died.
- It does not support the well-being of americans - only
billionaires...........Rethugs only support the top 1%
- It has suppressed constitutional guaranteed liberties.........Dumb-ya and
Dickless used warrant less wiretaps
- It has foisted a liar as president upon America..........Dumb-ya " Iraq
has weapons of mass destruction" 4000 of our troops died
- It has violated US national sovereignty in trade treaties..........Signed
by Dumb-ya
- It has refused to enforce the national borders..............Rethugs want
slave labor for their rich benefactors

...It no longer has valid reasons to exist.
Lorad474

--
Bruce

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Transformer for spot-welder buildup
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/7e7909b447a6eb51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:50 am
From: "Denis G."

On Jan 22, 2:42 am, IanM <look.in.my....@totally.invalid> wrote:
> Denis G. wrote:
> > On Jan 21, 9:06 am, IanM <look.in.my....@totally.invalid> wrote:
> >> Denis G. wrote:
> >>> On Jan 20, 11:25 am, Bob Engelhardt <bobengelha...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>> trg-s338 wrote:
> >>>>> .... The primary has 200, 0, 240 taps. Does
> >>>>> this mean single phase power lead to 240, neutral to 0, ...
> >>>> No - one leg of 240 to "240", the other leg of 240 to "0"
> >>>> > and ground to he frame ...
> >>>> Yes
> >>>>> Is this suitable for the intended build? Thanks.
> >>>> Maybe. It depends mostly on the output voltage. A couple of volts is
> >>>> good. Much more means that the 1.2kva won't be enough current, which is
> >>>> the main parameter.
> >>>> 1.2kva is marginal, but that rating is almost certainly continuous use
> >>>> and a spot welders duty cycle is so low that you can draw much more than
> >>>> that. E.g., if the out is rated for 1000A at 1.2v, you could draw
> >>>> 2000, or 3000 amps for the second or so that a weld takes & then let it
> >>>> cool while readying the next weld. The duty cycle might only be 10 -
> >>>> 20%. The unknown is whether your secondary winding can supply it. It
> >>>> looks like it from the pictures. Do you know the guage or dimensions of
> >>>> the secondary winding?
> >>>> I made my spotwelder from MOT's and my output voltage is 2 volts (IIRC)
> >>>> and it draws 17A at 240v, giving 4kva input and 2000A output (less core
> >>>> loss). See it here:
> >>>>http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/MOTSpotwelderPrintable.pdf
> >>>> Bob
> >>> I wouldn't have thought of making a secondary winding out of aluminum
> >>> bar like that. Nice execution of the idea too!
> >> The design can be considerably simplified. If you use a U shaped single
> >> turn winding that fully fills the core, you will get the maximum
> >> current output possible from that transformer. Just slide extra
> >> transformers onto the open end of the U until the desired open circuit
> >> voltage is reached. The secondaries are effectively in series so if the
> >> voltage drops, reverse the primary connections on the transformer you
> >> just added.
>
> >> This removes the need for complicated machining and also reduces the
> >> loss due to circulating currents caused by mis-matched OC voltages which
> >> is almost inevitable if the secondaries are paralleled and the
> >> transformers aren't *IDENTICAL*.
>
> >> One arm of the U would extend to the lower arm and contact, the other
> >> would need some sort of flexible connection to the upper arm. (This is
> >> visible as the shiny black taped cable in the second to last picture
> >> in the PDF which in my opinion should be a lot thicker. Pure aluminium
> >> has approximately 1.5 times more resistivity than pure copper, therefore
> >> to fully utilise the aluminium secondary, that connection should be
> >> about 2/3 of the CSA of the secondary.)
>
> >> I dont like the use of paint for insulation with the current capability
> >> it has. I strongly recommend lacquered card or similar all round the
> >> secondary where it passes through the cores and heatshrink, self
> >> amalgamating tape or similar over the rest of it. For safety, its
> >> probably a good idea to fully insulate *BOTH* arms from the base and
> >> pressure mechanism so that you dont get unexpected current paths through
> >> your workbench etc. if there is a little dirt under one tip.
>
> >> I would also be inclined to split the ends of the aluminium arms and add
> >> clamping bolts either side of each hole for the copper contacts.
>
> >> Why not add an adjustable over centre toggle mechanism with a strong
> >> return spring that trips a microswitch when it reaches its limit and is
> >> operated by a bowden cable from a foot pedal? Think mole grips or
> >> ratchet crimper for the sort of action required. That would give single
> >> pedal operation for clamping and welding. You would adjust contact
> >> pressure with the lockout switch OFF.
>
> >> I think a low voltage (chosen to suit the OC voltage) torch bulb wired
> >> across the arms near the tips (its insulated wiring can run back along
> >> the arms to any convenient location) would add a useful indicator as it
> >> will light brightly if the unit is energised with the tips not in
> >> contact and while actually welding its brightness will vary inversely
> >> with the welding current.
>
> >> --
> >> Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
> >> ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
> >> [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Malcom,
> > To complete a turn on the secondary I think that you need to complete
> > 360 degrees. The U-shape really constitutes a 1/2 turn. Your idea
> > may still work, (I haven't tried it), but I'm not sure how effective
> > this transformer will be.
>
> No, a half turn would go through ONE hole in the core. You agree that
> solid ring round the centre leg is a single turn shorted winding?
> Now stretch out one side of the ring without breaking it. The topology
> hasn't changed so this is still a single turn winding. Add another core
> (+ primary) with the centre leg inside the ring and the two outer legs
> outside it. You now have two single turn windings in series, but still
> shorted. Now break the ring on the far side of one of the cores and you
> have exactly the arrangement I propose which is the series circuit
> x--Sec2A--Sec1--Sec2B--x where Sec1 is the single turn secondary of the
> transformer at the base of the U and Sec2A and Sec2B are the two half
> turn secondaries of the other transformer.
>
> Incidentally, the 360 degree loop you mentioned is completed by the
> workpiece. Most soldering guns use a single turn U shaped secondary and
> it works nicely in that application.
>
> --
> Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
> ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
> [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ian,
Sorry, you're right. I was imagining a magnetic field torus made by a
loop of wire and not taking advantage of the entire field. The
ferrite core conducts most of the field around the two loops that you
describe.

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Friday, January 22, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

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