twitter: comp.lang.c - 25 new messages in 10 topics

comp.lang.c
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c?hl=en

comp.lang.c@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* memset() on a struct or union - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/e41e9c30b0f7a050?hl=en
* defining a boolean type - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/fcfa31f0e0473e4f?hl=en
* MySQL connector/driver behaviour with Visual C++ CLR/CLI project - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/738ca35dc8623177?hl=en
* free c text book advice.. - 6 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/adf51d19d9b07faf?hl=en
* Warning to newbies - 6 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/9597fd702985dff4?hl=en
* ◆⊙◆ Cheap wholesale Chanel scarf, Burberry Scarf, LV scarf ect at www.rijing-
trade.com <Paypal Payment> - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/f3ba2e5026ff1ff1?hl=en
* Macro Mystery ... help? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/edb83374439ae2ad?hl=en
* ◈•_•◈ Hot sale cheap shoes, T-shirts, handbags, purses, caps, underwears etc
www.ecyaya.com FASHION !!! - 3 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/0284d4110c11f66e?hl=en
* Need to recompile a Java Applet as an Executable - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/0b4a245e2b0b2c31?hl=en
* Pointer Question II - The Rebirth - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/17bf09bb220a8480?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: memset() on a struct or union
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/e41e9c30b0f7a050?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 2 2010 11:31 pm
From: Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>

Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> writes:

> Look up "metre" in any dictionary you have to hand. You will be
> referred to "meter" is every case. Even La Rousse.

By co-incidence I had Chamber's dictionary sitting such that I could
pick it up without moving in or from my seat. That's about as "to hand"
as you could get.

So I looked up "metre". Here's the first couple of lines of the entries
(with some adaptation for ASCII only):

"*metre*(1) or (US) *meter* [pronunciation] /n/ the regulated succession
of groups of syllables ...."

"*metre*(2) or (US) *meter* [pronunciation] /n/ the fundamental unit of
length in the metric system ...

It appears that you're wrong.

Just to really confirm this, there are two entries for "meter". The
first is "a measurer, an apparatus for measuring" and the second I quote
in it's entirety:

"*Meter*(2) US spelling of *metre*(1,2)
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 1:54 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 03:54, Joe Wright <joewwri...@comcast.net> wrote:
> bartc wrote:
> > "Joe Wright" <joewwri...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:XdSdnYjzQrPAOvXWnZ2dnUVZ_q9i4p2d@giganews.com...
> >> Richard Tobin wrote:
> >>> In article <hk9abg$is...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >>> Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid> wrote:

> >>>> Please refrain from using outmoded, idiosyncratic and
> >>>> purely local terms in describing your forthcoming conquest.
> >>>> The accepted International Standard language would be "When
> >>>> I crush nations under my meters ..."
>
> >>> Surely the International Standard spelling is "metres".
>
> >>> -- Richard
>
> >> I believe you'll find the international spelling to be "meter" except
> >> perhaps in Paris. And we know the French can't spell. Chien Chaud indeed.
>
> > A meter is what you have under the stairs.
>
> > A metre is 1000/25.4 inches.
>
> Look up "metre" in any dictionary you have to hand. You will be referred to
> "meter" is every case. Even La Rousse.

wikipedia have this to say "Two spellings of the name of the unit are
common in English: metre is preferred among the majority of countries
in the English-speaking world except in the United States, where the
spelling is meter"

> A meter is not defined in inches, rather the other way around. An inch is
> 25.4 millimeters, exactly. Napolean won that war.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 1:59 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 2 Feb, 16:19, Nobody <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:34:11 +0000, Richard Tobin wrote:
> >> Please refrain from using outmoded, idiosyncratic and
> >>purely local terms in describing your forthcoming conquest.
> >>The accepted International Standard language would be "When
> >>I crush nations under my meters ..."
>
> > Surely the International Standard spelling is "metres".
>
> British spelling: "metre"
> US spelling: "yard"

I'm not happy about the adoption of the yard. Rods, Poles and Perch
are good enough for anyone!

God used the cubit why should we use anything else?

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 2:39 am
From: Michael Foukarakis

On Feb 2, 6:25 pm, rich...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote:
> In article <pan.2010.02.02.16.17.10.172...@nowhere.com>,
>
> Nobody <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >British spelling: "metre"
> >US spelling: "yard"
>
> A metre is about 11/10 of a yard. Apparently Napoleon was a Spinal
> Tap fan, and wanted his metres to go to 11.

...most excellent.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: defining a boolean type
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/fcfa31f0e0473e4f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:18 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 00:55, "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_h...@havenone.cmm> wrote:
> "Seebs" <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnhmf210.hkn.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net...
> > On 2010-02-02, Rod Pemberton <do_not_h...@havenone.cmm> wrote:

> > >> You can only define a single value as TRUE (or true). The most
> > >> obvious value to use is 1.
>
> > > Is it?
>
> > Yes.
>
> > >Isn't _obvious_ it should -1? (-1 a.k.a. all bits set)
>
> > Not really "obvious".
>
> I was discretely pointing out KT still has no experience with assembly or
> the implementation of C using assembly. All the world is ADA...

so discretely it completely passed *me* by. I havn't a clue what
Keith's assemble experience is. I don't see why heavy use of assembly
would lead to -1 being the "obvious" choice for -1. What's Ada got to
do with price of fish?

> > Interestingly, the one other person I've seen argue
> > that was Edward Nilges. :)
>
> That just means you haven't used other languages.

there's plenty of langaues that don't use -1 for true. Algol, pascal,
FORTRAN, Lisp, scheme for starters.

> [...] In FORTH-83, they converted to 0 and -1 for false and true,
> respectively.

[...]

> assembly. Logical operations must be constructed from bitwise operations in
> most assembly.

you'll have to explain. If I want to generate true I could invert all
the bits of false
xora FF

but why is that any easier than
xora 1

If I use single bits for booleans I can multiple booleans into a
single byte (I've generated morse on multiple channels this way). You
way precludes that.

Assembly *increses* your flexibility in low level data representation,
so why limit yourself this way?

> > Here's my thought: Consider a single bit. It's either zero or one.
>
> > The non-zero value is 1. Otherwise, you have the problem that
>
> > ((unsigned short) true == (int) true)
>
> > might be untrue.
>
> Did I miss something? C has that problem currently. So, what's your point?

I'm left equally baffled. "it hurts when I do this, doctor!" "so don't
do that"

> > > That's true. But, using 1 as the only valid value "true" means you can
> > > only use it within logical operations. What if you forget and use it with a
> > > binary operation? Shouldn't a value of true be chosen to work with
> > > _both_ binary and logical operations? Wouldn't that be wise?

I don't see why. If its logically a boolean then use it as a boolean.
If it's a bunch of bits use it as a bunch of bits.

> > I don't think it works out that way. If you pick -1, then
> > (x & true)
> > is always true if x is non-zero -- but
>
> Correct.
>
> > (x & true) & (y & true)
> > might not be non-zero even if both x and y are non-zero.
>
> For -1 as a true value, true. But, (x&true) and (y&true) have both worked
> properly using true with a binary operation. It's the later operation,
> which doesn't use true, that fails. This is no different than x&y resulting
> in zero for certain non-zero binary values.

it's the fundamental flaw in confusing boolean with bunch-of-bits.

> > So I don't much like the attempt to make the first work, since if the
> > first works, you might mistakenly expect the second to work.
>
> > > I don't agree. I want my value for "true" to work correctly for both
> > > binary and logical operations as a non-false value.

why?

> However, I'm not sure why anyone would do a binary comparison of a result
> with true when you can test this directly via an if()...

nor me, but it seems to be widespread. If only C had had a proper
boolean type from day 1... And a null keyword. And proper function
prototypes (what we have now should have been in K&R). Secretly I want
C to be pascal.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MySQL connector/driver behaviour with Visual C++ CLR/CLI project
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/738ca35dc8623177?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:24 am
From: Michael Foukarakis

On Feb 3, 6:48 am, 0 <jeffrey.whites...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello. i'm having an issue getting the MySQL connector/driver to
> behave proberly with a Visual C++ CLR/CLI project.... my issue is
> best described by this screen capture:http://img97.imageshack.us/i/mysqlissue.jpg/
>
> The host name that MySQL is trying to resolve is a series of strange
> characters.... certainly not the "string" that is passed into the
> connector function. The exception handler is saying: Unknown MySQL
> server host 'U‹ìWVS ì ' (11004)... clearly it is not trying to
> connect to tcp://bluetech
>
> Has anyone see this? Could it have to do with language/character sets
> or something? I've already tried: this->con = this->driver->connect
> (L"tcp://bluetech:3306",L"SC",L"SC"); but, the connect function is
> looking for a std::string.
>
> Can someone please help me?
>
> Thanks!

You are hiding the driver's implementation, so there's not much to
say. I'll assume you're using the non-deprecated mysql_real_connect()
function to connect to a MySQL database; in that case, there's a lot
of mandatory parameters you might be missing in your call. Again,
based on the stripped-down interface you're showing, it's hard to
tell.

If you care to provide some more related info, we might be able to
help.

Cheers.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: free c text book advice..
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/adf51d19d9b07faf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:27 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 05:20, c...@tiac.net (Richard Harter) wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:14:01 +0000, Richard Heathfield

> >Only a complete idiot would consider that a recommendation. This
> >newsgroup appears to have no shortage of idiots.
>
> This sort of thing is one reason why you raise people's hackles.
> Calling people idiots, stupid, losers and the like is common
> enough among bright progammers. It's a trap. People do not
> respond well to perceived arrogance and condescension.

but there comes a point when their idocy is so plain that "complete
idiot" is the only way to describe them. I'll give Jacob a free pass
as he's a non-native speaker (though he does look like he just wants a
poke at Richard Heathfield) but Richard <noname> and twinky are just
arguing for the sake of arguing.

Actually calling themn "idiots" is to be offensive to people who have
genuine cognitive challenges. I'd rather deal with genuine but not
very bright people than the smart but contrary.

"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person
could believe in them." -- George Orwell

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:38 am
From: Richard Heathfield

Richard Harter wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:14:01 +0000, Richard Heathfield
> <rjh@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Only a complete idiot would consider that a recommendation. This
>> newsgroup appears to have no shortage of idiots.
>
> This sort of thing is one reason why you raise people's hackles.

The kind of people whose hackles it would raise are already fully
up-hackled anyway.

> Calling people idiots, stupid, losers and the like is common
> enough among bright progammers. It's a trap.

Actually, I rarely use the word. But, when I do, it's no trap.

> People do not
> respond well to perceived arrogance and condescension.

And I don't respond well to idiotic behaviour. So?

In any case, idiots don't respond well to *anything*. If anyone who
believes I have described them in that way wants to demonstrate that
they are not idiotic after all, that's entirely up to them and entirely
welcome. Non-idiots are always welcome.

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:45 am
From: Richard Heathfield

Seebs wrote:
> On 2010-02-03, Richard Harter <cri@tiac.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:14:01 +0000, Richard Heathfield
>> <rjh@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
>>> Only a complete idiot would consider that a recommendation. This
>>> newsgroup appears to have no shortage of idiots.
>
>> This sort of thing is one reason why you raise people's hackles.
>> Calling people idiots, stupid, losers and the like is common
>> enough among bright progammers. It's a trap. People do not
>> respond well to perceived arrogance and condescension.
>
> I gotta second that one. I can understand being angry with Jacob for
> what he's been saying, but I don't think it makes him a complete idiot.

You don't? Well, okay, it's a free Usenet, I guess.

> I disagree with him, but I can see someone reasonably assuming that
> offering a link in response to a query is at least *normally* a
> recommendation. I think the disclaimers adequately dispelled that, but...

...but so would anyone with the capacity to read and understand English.
Anyone taking my article as a recommendation is being either
deliberately obtuse or appallingly stupid.

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:45 am
From: Richard

Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 3 Feb, 05:20, c...@tiac.net (Richard Harter) wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:14:01 +0000, Richard Heathfield
>
>> >Only a complete idiot would consider that a recommendation. This
>> >newsgroup appears to have no shortage of idiots.
>>
>> This sort of thing is one reason why you raise people's hackles.
>> Calling people idiots, stupid, losers and the like is common
>> enough among bright progammers. It's a trap. People do not
>> respond well to perceived arrogance and condescension.
>
> but there comes a point when their idocy is so plain that "complete
> idiot" is the only way to describe them. I'll give Jacob a free pass
> as he's a non-native speaker (though he does look like he just wants a
> poke at Richard Heathfield) but Richard <noname> and twinky are just
> arguing for the sake of arguing.
>
> Actually calling themn "idiots" is to be offensive to people who have
> genuine cognitive challenges. I'd rather deal with genuine but not
> very bright people than the smart but contrary.
>
> --
>
> "There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person
> could believe in them." -- George Orwell

So when Heathfield googled up and posted a link that might help and gave a
guarded caveat you think that is NOT recommending?

So he posted a link to something he does NOT recommend?

Please. Use your noddle.

--
"Avoid hyperbole at all costs, its the most destructive argument on
the planet" - Mark McIntyre in comp.lang.c

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 1:09 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-02-03, Richard Heathfield <rjh@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
> ...but so would anyone with the capacity to read and understand English.
> Anyone taking my article as a recommendation is being either
> deliberately obtuse or appallingly stupid.

I think it's well within the normal scope of the usual unconscious
filtering brains perform when interpreting other peoples' statements or
actions. I think it's wrong, but it's not an amazingly unreasonable
error, just a sort of mildly unreasonable error.

-s
--
Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nospam@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 1:46 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 08:45, Richard <rgrd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > On 3 Feb, 05:20, c...@tiac.net (Richard Harter) wrote:
> >> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:14:01 +0000, Richard Heathfield
>
> >> >Only a complete idiot would consider that a recommendation. This
> >> >newsgroup appears to have no shortage of idiots.
>
> >> This sort of thing is one reason why you raise people's hackles.
> >> Calling people idiots, stupid, losers and the like is common
> >> enough among bright progammers. It's a trap. People do not
> >> respond well to perceived arrogance and condescension.
>
> > but there comes a point when their idocy is so plain that "complete
> > idiot" is the only way to describe them. I'll give Jacob a free pass
> > as he's a non-native speaker (though he does look like he just wants a
> > poke at Richard Heathfield) but Richard <noname> and twinky are just
> > arguing for the sake of arguing.
>
> > Actually calling themn "idiots" is to be offensive to people who have
> > genuine cognitive challenges. I'd rather deal with genuine but not
> > very bright people than the smart but contrary.
>
> > --
>
> > "There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person
> > could believe in them." -- George Orwell
>
> So when Heathfield googled up and posted a link that might help and gave a
> guarded caveat you think that is NOT recommending?

a very heavily guarded caveat; so yes that is NOT recommending. It's
odd which people read it one way and which the other (both ways
round).

> So he posted a link to something he does NOT recommend?
>
> Please. Use your noddle.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Warning to newbies
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/9597fd702985dff4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:35 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 2 Feb, 13:32, "James" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
> "spinoza1111" <spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1482b72d-2978-4979-8cc4-2dc2dbfed2c1@e19g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 1, 1:11 pm, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> > > On 2010-01-31, Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:

> > > This is Usenet, where I regularly see people struggling to convince
> > > other people of things like "computers mostly run on electricity"
>
> > Babbage's machine is now working in London and it works with manual
> > power.

hence "mostly"

> This may be way off base on many levels because I have a very limited
> knowledge of the low-level inner workings of the human body, but, a human is
> using "electricity" to manually operate a Babbage's machine right?

that's straining things. Supposed we replaced the man with a windmill.

> I mean that the signal from the brain to the appendage that is actually
> mutating the machine is "based" in electrical signals from said brain to
> arm, hand and of course fingers which render all of the "beautiful" fine
> motor movements that are "necessary" to "operate" such machinery?
>
> Please, cut me some slack as I wrote this after a sleepless night. I know
> that's not a "good" excuse in any way shape or form, but it's sadly the
> truth.
>
> ;^(...

and incidently if you are ever near the London Science Museum then go
and vist Babbage's Engine. It's really cool.

--
"I wish to God these calculations had been accomplished by steam."
--C. Babbage

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:44 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 02:50, Richard Heathfield <r...@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
> In <e6146716-045f-43ea-978e-bc78d53c7...@b9g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> spinoza1111 wrote:

> > To say it's "implementation defined" and to claim this is a standard
> > is bullshit.
>
> No, it's reality. The C Standard leaves quite a number of decisions up
> to the implementation.

is there a programming language standard that /doesn't/ do this?

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:51 am
From: Richard Heathfield

Nick Keighley wrote:
> On 3 Feb, 02:50, Richard Heathfield <r...@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
>> In <e6146716-045f-43ea-978e-bc78d53c7...@b9g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
>> spinoza1111 wrote:
>
>
>>> To say it's "implementation defined" and to claim this is a standard
>>> is bullshit.
>> No, it's reality. The C Standard leaves quite a number of decisions up
>> to the implementation.
>
> is there a programming language standard that /doesn't/ do this?

It's hard to see how there could be, for a language of any real power.
The only way to define a language completely is to nail it down
completely: everything is either required or forbidden.

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 2:50 am
From: "James"

"Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:23b7a93b-e7b8-4e51-bfcb-e26d4f616278@h2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> On 2 Feb, 13:32, "James" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
>> "spinoza1111" <spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1482b72d-2978-4979-8cc4-2dc2dbfed2c1@e19g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 1, 1:11 pm, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
>> > > On 2010-01-31, Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:
>
>
>> > > This is Usenet, where I regularly see people struggling to convince
>> > > other people of things like "computers mostly run on electricity"
>>
>> > Babbage's machine is now working in London and it works with manual
>> > power.
>
> hence "mostly"
>
>
>> This may be way off base on many levels because I have a very limited
>> knowledge of the low-level inner workings of the human body, but, a human
>> is
>> using "electricity" to manually operate a Babbage's machine right?
>
> that's straining things. Supposed we replaced the man with a windmill.

Well, I am not exactly sure how good the windmill would be at actually
programming the machine.

>> I mean that the signal from the brain to the appendage that is actually
>> mutating the machine is "based" in electrical signals from said brain to
>> arm, hand and of course fingers which render all of the "beautiful" fine
>> motor movements that are "necessary" to "operate" such machinery?
>>
>> Please, cut me some slack as I wrote this after a sleepless night. I know
>> that's not a "good" excuse in any way shape or form, but it's sadly the
>> truth.
>>
>> ;^(...
>
> and incidently if you are ever near the London Science Museum then go
> and vist Babbage's Engine. It's really cool.

Will do! :^)

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 2:58 am
From: "James"

"James" <no@spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:hkbkdv$frq$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> "Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:23b7a93b-e7b8-4e51-bfcb-e26d4f616278@h2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>> On 2 Feb, 13:32, "James" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
>>> "spinoza1111" <spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1482b72d-2978-4979-8cc4-2dc2dbfed2c1@e19g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Feb 1, 1:11 pm, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
>>> > > On 2010-01-31, Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > > This is Usenet, where I regularly see people struggling to convince
>>> > > other people of things like "computers mostly run on electricity"
>>>
>>> > Babbage's machine is now working in London and it works with manual
>>> > power.
>>
>> hence "mostly"
>>
>>
>>> This may be way off base on many levels because I have a very limited
>>> knowledge of the low-level inner workings of the human body, but, a
>>> human is
>>> using "electricity" to manually operate a Babbage's machine right?
>>
>> that's straining things. Supposed we replaced the man with a windmill.
>
> Well, I am not exactly sure how good the windmill would be at actually
> programming the machine.

[...]

Ah, but that's not really the point...

The point is that the machine can execute a program without using any
electricity (e.g., a windmill).

Okay, thanks for taking the time to set me straight Nick!

Note to self: Don't post after a sleepless night!

;^D

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 3:27 am
From: Tim Streater

On 03/02/2010 02:33, spinoza1111 wrote:
> On Feb 3, 12:16 am, Tim Streater<timstrea...@waitrose.com> wrote:
>> On 02/02/2010 11:15,spinoza1111wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>> A sensible "C standard" would have in fact defined a new C free of
>>> these problems:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> reaching the end of a non-void function without finding a return
>>> statement, when the return value is used
>>> But "reaching the end of a non-void function" and falling off the end
>>> of the world is flat-earth thinking, the unnecessary preservation of
>>> the mistakes of the past and the limitations of old machines. You
>>> should have FORCED vendors to hire compiler developers to FIX this
>>> problem by simply adding a machine language return statement behind
>>> ALL such functions as a guard, or behind functions where the return is
>>> missing. This isn't rocket science.
>>
>> You've missed the point here, Baldrick. It's not that the function won't
>> return, but that because execution reaches the end of the function
>> without encountering a "return x" statement, the value that the function
>> returns is undefined. This is obviously a problem if the caller expects
>> to use the returned value.
>>
>> And "undefined" simply means that the value seen by the caller will be
>> implementation-defined and therefore could be anything. I add this as
>> you don't appear to understand this simple point.
>
> To say it's "implementation defined" and to claim this is a standard
> is bullshit. If it's "implementation defined" then it's not a
> standard.

Well done for sidestepping the major flaw that I pointed out, and
focussing on the second point.

> "International standard for dildoes"! "Anything you like including
> exploding ones!"
>
> That is: standardization is for the safety and convenience of the
> consumer/user, not for compiler vendors. Underwriter's Laboratories
> certifies electrical products as safe, it does NOT say that "the
> result is undefined", ...

Safe when used as directed. UL will doubtless specify the voltage range,
temperature range, humidity, and so on. To go outside these limits is
potentially *unsafe* and what actually happens is undefined. Get the
point now?

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines
imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"

Bill of Rights 1689

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TOPIC: Macro Mystery ... help?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/edb83374439ae2ad?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 1:02 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 03:21, Ray <b...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> > Defining macros for fragments of a statement is a bad idea, probably.
>
> Eh. I allow it to myself when the #define and #undef are on the same
> screen, with all the macro calls between them. If it were a macro that
> could be called "from anywhere" as the saying goes, then yes, I'd want
> to make it more function-like and complete unto itself.
>
> > And note that C does not have an elseif keyword. It's ``else if''.
>
> Ding! That was it. Thank you, I was getting C crossed up with some
> other language. I may have too many languages in my head now to ever
> be truly free of this effect. One side effect of having something
> like that pointed out is that now I feel like an idiot for having
> asked in the first place. Sigh.

its always abvious when you know the answer

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Need to recompile a Java Applet as an Executable
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/0b4a245e2b0b2c31?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 1:12 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 3 Feb, 00:40, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 02-02-2010 15:11, Antoninus Twink wrote:

[...]

> > Richard Heathfield is a notorious comp.lang.c fantasist.
>
> > It is obvious that he has never done any programming work in the real
> > world - no shop I've ever known would tolerate his truculent attitude
> > and his prissy refusal to step beyond a purely academic view of language
> > purity and get his hands dirty with pragmatic code that might actually
> > work.
>
> I don't recognize that description.
>
> He does not seem to have much faith in VM based runtimes.
>
> That does not exclude programming in the real world.

twink's a troll with a problem with Richard Heathfield.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pointer Question II - The Rebirth
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/17bf09bb220a8480?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 3:49 am
From: Ben Bacarisse

DSF <notavalid@address.here> writes:

> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:01:23 +0000, Ben Bacarisse
> <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>DSF <notavalid@address.here> writes:
<snip>
>>> Here's the updated code: (Name's still the same, for now.)
>>>
>>> int StringDelete(char *str, size_t pos, size_t n)
>>> {
>>> char *p1;
>>> char *p2;
>>>
>>> size_t l = strlen(str);
>>>
>>> if(pos < l && !((pos + n) < n))
>>
>>What is that second test all about?
>
> No "mystery." The reason is in the part of my reply to Peter
> Nilsson that was snipped. The second part above simply tests pos + n
> for overflow. Off the top of my head (untested) I guess it could have
> been stated as ((pos + n) >= n) and lose the !, but it does work as
> written.
>
>>
>>> {
>>> if(pos + n > l)
>>> n = l - pos;
>>
>>Ah, maybe you are worried about the possibility that pos+n is bigger
>>than SIZE_MAX. I would test if n > l - pos and adjust if needed and
>>delete the "mystery" test in the previous if.
>
> See above. I really don't think it's all that "mysterious." ;o)

The mystery is why it is there, not what it does. Not only is it not
needed (to get the job done -- you need it with the way you've written
this) it focuses the reader on the wrong thing: something technical
about the addition rather than the logical flaw that n > l - pos.

>>> p1 = str + pos;
>>> p2 = p1 + n;
>>>
>>> while(*p2)
>>> *p1++ = *p2++;
>>> *p1 = *p2;
>>
>>This is what memmove is for.
>
> Yeah, I know. But I figured making a wide (16 bit character)
> version of this function would be a lot easier. Just change all char
> to wchar_t and use the wide version of strlen.

It's not that hard to change memmove to wmemmove at the same time.

Interestingly, I find it easier to write these things with a loop
myself (getting the offsets and lengths right for the memmove often
seems rather fiddly), but I prefer to use the library function in part
because it seems easier to check that the call is correct than to
check all the pointer setup and copying. This may be a figment of my
imagination, but I'd rather have code that is self-evident that code
that was simple to write.

> However,since its
> companion function "StringInsert" already uses memmove, and memmove
> will be faster except on the shortest strings (or if pos+n >= l, in
> which case it merely plops a 0 in str[n]).
>
>>
>>> return 0;
>>> }
>>> return 1;
>>> }
>>
>>Odd return values, but I've seen your explanation of why.
>
> The conventional method would be to return str unaltered, but I
> figure returning "Hey you! Either pos or n is out of range or str is
> shorter that you thought!" would be much more useful for debugging or
> error handling. :o)

An alternative is to return str one success and NULL on failure.
There won't be a lot of benefit, but on occasion the caller will know
that all the sizes are right and they can reply on a non-null result.

--
Ben.

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