twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 11 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

rec.crafts.metalworking@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: building jeep frame
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/32fc57a529507b1b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 12:47 pm
From: "Steve W."

mark wrote:
> My original jeep CJ-7 frame has rusted out and I was thinking of
> building a new one from aluminum. Would 2 X 4 X 1/4 wall (if that is
> even available) box tubing have the equivalent strength of the stock
> 1/8" wall steel frame? I would like aluminum because it will last
> forever, no need of any paints etc..., very easy to work with and
> cheaper than building a steel one and having it galvanized. My second
> choice would be stainless 1/8" box tubing.

Aluminum is a VERY poor choice for a frame of a Jeep. The frame in them
is engineered to flex and allow the suspension to operate well. That
flex in aluminum will work harden the frame in a short time and cause
failures. The welds will be the first failures and then the rails
themselves.
Even if you doubled the thickness the frame will be the weak point.

Now if you have access to stainless and a way to work with it that would
be a MUCH better choice. It would flex like the steel and retain it's
strength. The alloy of the stainless would be a BIG factor though.

Personally if I wanted a long lasting rig I would start with a custom
tube frame and a fiberglass or stainless body. One of the locals has a
set up like that.

--
Steve W.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:10 pm
From: Tim Wescott

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:52:53 -0800 (PST), mark <markhabbi@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My original jeep CJ-7 frame has rusted out and I was thinking of
>> building a new one from aluminum. Would 2 X 4 X 1/4 wall (if that is
>> even available) box tubing have the equivalent strength of the stock
>> 1/8" wall steel frame? I would like aluminum because it will last
>> forever, no need of any paints etc..., very easy to work with and
>> cheaper than building a steel one and having it galvanized. My second
>> choice would be stainless 1/8" box tubing.
>
> You do NOT ewant an aluminum frame. Perhaps stainless steel.
> Aluminum frames on a jeep WILL flex. Particularly a 2X4 x1/4 tube.
> ANY time aluminum flexes it is a stress, and all stresses are
> cumulative. Frame life would likely be measured in months.
>
> Steel is different. It has an elastic limit, and as long as that
> loimit is not exceeded, no cumulative stress occurs.
>
> I'd build a stainless steel TUBE frame if I was going to the trouble -
> but Iron Horse (I believe that is still the name of the company)
> supplies ready made replacement frames at a very reasonable price.

Oh boy, if you can buy a frame that's the way to go. Unless you're just
determined to build your own frame for the sake of it, and have a well
equipped shop at your disposal, you'll spend less time and probably less
money buying one.

Aluminum works differently than steel, and is not corrosion proof --
particularly when you bold a bunch of steel parts to it.

Stainless is hard to weld, and fatigues far more readily than steel.

Steel can be painted or galvanized to not rust, and works pretty darn
well for frames. Very few cars have aluminum frames for a very good reason.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:49 pm
From: Jordan

Tim Wescott wrote:

>
> Steel can be painted or galvanized to not rust, and works pretty darn
> well for frames.

The original spec for Land Rover (British version of Jeep) frames was to
make them in steel and galvanize. They didn't do that in production, but
a version for the Australian army called the Perentie did.
<http://www.allisons.org/ll/4/LandRover/Perentie/>
The chasses were welded up from rectangular section steel, looking
something like a home built.
Don't Jeep frames need to flex somewhat? I saw a bare one sitting on a
garage floor. The owner picked up one corner, and the other three
corners stayed on the floor!

Jordan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: References for Designing a gearbox
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2df57341ff32768b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 12:47 pm
From: RoyJ

You might start with the Boston Gear catalog. It lists many of the open
stock gears as well as a lot of info on gear loading, speeds, etc.
http://www.bostongear.com/litportal/pdfs/P-1482%20ALL%20PAGESsm.pdf

Louis Ohland wrote:
> Looking for a good book on machine gearboxes. Belts and pulleys are
> nice, but a tad limited.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Vernier caliper accuracy
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/76e5fcfdb23ed51e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 12:56 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

DoN. Nichols wrote:

Hi Don,

Thanks for the description of the sine plate. Sorry I've taken a few
days to reply. Bad week!

>>Just briefly, what's a sine plate used for?
>
>
> It is a plate (or a bar -- the more common ones are sine bars)
> which has a pair of cylindrical surfaces at each end, separated by a
> precise center distance. The most common is 5.000", though I have one
> at 2.500", and have seen some offered at 10.000").
>
> For a sine bar, there is no captive base plate, so you set it on
> a surface plate, and with both cylinders in contact, its top is parallel
> to the surface plate.
>
> Now -- let's say you want a precise fifteen degrees. O.K. Look
> up the sine of 15 degrees (0.258819045) and multiply by the length of
> the bar (5.000"), so you get 1.294095226". Wring a stack of gauge
> blocks to get 1.2941" and you will get very close to 15 degrees.
> Calculating back from that, I get 15.000056 degrees +/- a bit given
> the accuracy of the gauge block set. I stopped the blocks at 1.2941"
> assuming a cheap Chinese set with +/- 0.000050 accuracy. You can get
> greater precision with the more expensive and accurate sets.
>
> But -- to get that 1.2941" -- we need to build a stack. Let's
> see -- start with a 0.1001" block, add a 0.1040" block, then a 0.1900"
> block, so we are up to 0.3941" and need only 0.9000" to make up our
> total size. When calculating/building a stack, always start with the
> last decimal place and work backwards. Here, for example, if you had
> started at the big end, you would have picked up a 1.0000" block, and
> when you got the lesser digits you would have discovered that the total
> was too long.
>
> Now -- a sine plate is like a sine bar, except that it is wider
> (the sine bar may be 1" wide) and is captive to a base, so you can build
> the angle and lock it in and then carry it to the magnetic chuck of a
> surface grinder to grind the desired angle on something mounted to the
> top (angled) plate.
>
> To see a sine bar -- here is one on MSC's site:
>
> <http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=17520867&PMT4NO=80436460>
>
> Or MSC part number 85005502 in case the url above turns out to
> be a temporary one built by my search.
>
> The toe on one end is to keep the workpiece from sliding off the
> end while measuring.
>
> An example sine plate (much larger and *much* more expensive
> than the one which I have) is MSC item 08020216
>
> <http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1778994&PMT4NO=80436812>
>
> You can see the near roll under the top plate in the image, and a raised
> block for the zero point, which is a precise height above the base
> plate. So you can either build blocks above the raised block, or above
> the base plate - whichever lets you reach your desired height more
> easily.
>
> Note that there are double sine plates -- a second one hinged at
> right angles to the first to allow compound angles.
>
> I've used mine to make Acme threading tools to fit a boring bar.
> I first used the smallest sine bar that I have (2.5" long between
> centers) to machine a 14 degree angle plate (half of an Acme) guide to
> hold a HSS tool bit at that angle in a small vise, then mounted the vise
> on the sine plate, and set the gauge blocks under it for the desired
> side relief on one side of the bit. This went onto the surface grinder,
> and was used to make the desired angle on that side. Then I reversed
> the bit and angle plate, and built a different stack of gauge blocks to
> provide the different relief angle on the other side of the bit. (This
> was calculated based on the helix angle of the thread. After this was
> complete, I put the bit upright in the vise and set a nose relief angle
> to grind while I ground the nose back for the proper nose width for that
> particular Acme thread pitch.

Not what I was expecting! I had imagined a steel plate with a surface
shaped like a sine wave, sitting on a table (though what you'd use that
for, I don't know). Thanks for the explanation. Some day I'll probably
need one!

Best wishes,

Chris

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:00 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

DoN. Nichols wrote:

> For checking *wear* in the cylinders (as you want) what you got
> is better -- quicker to use and all. And it lets you measure parallel
> to and at right angles to the crankshaft to check for oval wear.
>
> For checking a reboring job, I would prefer the three-point,
> since the boring had *better* be cylindrical. :-) But since this is
> going to be in an automobile, and you have dissimilar metals between the
> cylinder and the piston, you have differing thermal coeifficents of
> expansion, and the temperature range between sitting outside on a really
> cold day (maybe -40 in some areas, where special lubricants and coolants
> are also needed, and a bit over 212 F (100 C) would really require a
> good starting clearance, or it will seize at one extreme or the other.

Actually, it's a big motor lawnmower (80 mm bore).

>> All the gauges I found on the market were two-point with a
>>centring device. I picked the one I mentioned because it's complete with
>>all the anvils, locking nuts and the spanner, and is in good condition.
>>There were more accurate gauges available (measured down to 0.0001"
>>instead of 0.0005"), but they were much more worn and had missing parts.
>
>
> Any idea what the required starting clearance is between the
> pistons and the bores? *That* would settle how accurate you need the
> measurement to be for checking a rebore.

I've found that figure in the manual. I'll post it along with my
measurements in a new thread shortly.

>>Also, I figured that for investigating wear as opposed to reboring,
>>having a 40 thousandths range on the dial might be more useful than a 10
>>thousandths range. If people are interested, I can take a picture of the
>>bore gauge and calipers.
>
>
> If so -- post it to the dropbox, or on a private web site and
> post the URL to find it.

Here's a picture of my actual calipers:
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/etalon_vernier_calipers.jpg

Best wishes,

Chris

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:05 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

Ed Huntress wrote:

>>Interesting. Why are pistons intentionally made elliptical?
>
>
> Because the thicker sections, which are the boss areas for the wrist pins
> (piston pins) expand with much more force than the thin sections. So the
> pistons have a smaller diameter across the boss area.

Ah, I think I misunderstoood you. I thought you meant a piston shaped
like a beer barrel. Instead you mean a piston which is slightly
elliptical when viewed from the top or bottom?

>>I've heard of pistons where the top land is of a smaller diameter
>>(apparently it reduces wear because the lubrication is poorer at the top),
>>but I've not heard of an elliptical piston.
>
>
> Almost all production automobile pistons made today are elliptical. In fact,
> they're often elliptical with the major axis in one direction at the top of
> the piston, and in the other direction at the bottom. The bottom ellipse is
> for better sealing, to meet emission requirements. It has to do with
> differential friction and heating between the neutral axis, which is
> parallel to the crankshaft, versus the other axis.
>
> When I was at Wasino we had some drawings from Ford that actually had three
> different ellipses along their length, from top to bottom, and they had to
> blend into each other.
>
>
>>I'm surprised it doesn't increase the wear on the sides due to the reduced
>>surface area, and I'd have thought it could allow the piston to vibrate in
>>an angular sense about the gudgeon pin. Any more information, Ed?
>
>
> If you don't get an expert to chime in here, I'll see what I can dig up for
> you. There is one guy who stops in here from time to time who is an engineer
> for one of the world's top piston manufacturers; you won't get any better
> info than that from him.

The thought I had about vibration only applies to a piston shaped like a
beer barrel. And if the piston expands to become a near-perfect cylinder
when it's heated, I can see why wear wouldn't be an issue either. Thanks!

Best wishes,

Chris

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:09 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22NOSPAM@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:4B8ADAA2.9050601@cantabgold.net...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>
>>>Interesting. Why are pistons intentionally made elliptical?
>>
>>
>> Because the thicker sections, which are the boss areas for the wrist pins
>> (piston pins) expand with much more force than the thin sections. So the
>> pistons have a smaller diameter across the boss area.
>
> Ah, I think I misunderstoood you. I thought you meant a piston shaped like
> a beer barrel. Instead you mean a piston which is slightly elliptical when
> viewed from the top or bottom?

Yes. I wish I still had the 3D versions of those Ford programs that I
produced in Rhino, for our promotional material on cutting elliptical
pistons. I applied multipliers in Excel to the values in the CAD drawing
until you could actually see the shapes with the naked eye.

I don't want to confuse things, but they were shaped a lot lie beer barrels.
<g> As I mentioned, there were three different ellipses from top to bottom,
with major axes arranged differently, and the appearance from some angles
was that they were widest in the middle.

>
>>>I've heard of pistons where the top land is of a smaller diameter
>>>(apparently it reduces wear because the lubrication is poorer at the
>>>top), but I've not heard of an elliptical piston.
>>
>>
>> Almost all production automobile pistons made today are elliptical. In
>> fact, they're often elliptical with the major axis in one direction at
>> the top of the piston, and in the other direction at the bottom. The
>> bottom ellipse is for better sealing, to meet emission requirements. It
>> has to do with differential friction and heating between the neutral
>> axis, which is parallel to the crankshaft, versus the other axis.
>>
>> When I was at Wasino we had some drawings from Ford that actually had
>> three different ellipses along their length, from top to bottom, and they
>> had to blend into each other.
>>
>>
>>>I'm surprised it doesn't increase the wear on the sides due to the
>>>reduced surface area, and I'd have thought it could allow the piston to
>>>vibrate in an angular sense about the gudgeon pin. Any more information,
>>>Ed?
>>
>>
>> If you don't get an expert to chime in here, I'll see what I can dig up
>> for you. There is one guy who stops in here from time to time who is an
>> engineer for one of the world's top piston manufacturers; you won't get
>> any better info than that from him.
>
> The thought I had about vibration only applies to a piston shaped like a
> beer barrel. And if the piston expands to become a near-perfect cylinder
> when it's heated, I can see why wear wouldn't be an issue either. Thanks!

Yes, that's more or less what happens.

--
Ed Huntress

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:33 pm
From: "DoN. Nichols"

On 2010-02-28, Christopher Tidy <cdt22NOSPAM@cantabgold.net> wrote:
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
> Hi Don,
>
> Thanks for the description of the sine plate.

You're welcome.

> Sorry I've taken a few
> days to reply. Bad week!

A lot of that going around -- just from the weather. I hope
that is all that yours was.

>>>Just briefly, what's a sine plate used for?

[ ... description of appearance and use snipped ... ]

> Not what I was expecting! I had imagined a steel plate with a surface
> shaped like a sine wave, sitting on a table (though what you'd use that
> for, I don't know).

Actually -- there is something like that -- but a pair of them
go in a milling vise to support the workpiece. They are less prone to
topple over when the vise is loosened than some standard parallels, and
they can also be positioned to support workpieces with gaps near the
edges in some places and nearer the center in others.

I think that they are called "wave parallels". I've never owned
any, or had a chance to handle some belonging to someone else, but they
strike me as useful for production runs.

> Thanks for the explanation. Some day I'll probably
> need one!

If you see one used cheap -- go for it even before you need it.
I've gotten a lot of my tools that way against future needs.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Glenn Beck's authoritarian manifesto
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/03ecfef2321238cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 12:59 pm
From: D Murphy

sittingduck <duck@spamherelots.com> wrote in
news:Xns9D2D757298179duckrulestheuniverse@nomail.afraid.org:

> D Murphy wrote:
>
>> So now I'm whining? Actually I'm pointing out facts that you are
>> failing to respond to. And now you want to shift the argument to
>> "crazy talk"? Who gets to define crazy? I didn't post some screed
>> insinuating that Glenn Beck was a racist, you did. Where is the
>> evidence?
>
> Funny you should focus on the racist angle, I didnt' get that. I
> thought the point was that he was whipping the ignorant into a mob.
> With crazy talk.

Funny you didn't get that, it was in there along with the comparison to
Hitler. And you say Beck is whipping the faithful into a frenzy with
crazy talk? LOL.

>
>> You seem long on accusations but short on specifics. Fox is on 24/7
>> and the left employs a host of folks whose only job is to find
>> something, anything that can be construed as offensive. So you should
>> be able to assemble a list of Fox's transgressions with ease.
>
> I don't feel the need to prove anything. Anyone with a reasonably open
> mind can judge for themselves.

Right. Just write whatever you feel like, true or not and let the people
judge for themselves. BTW, have you stopped beating your wife?

>
>> I also noticed that you've chosen not to respond to evidence of
>> actual racism among the left.
>
> And you accuse ME of shifting focus? <G>
>

You posted a piece that infers that Beck is a racist and compares him to
Hitler. I'm just showing you who the real racists are.

Dan

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:16 pm
From: D Murphy

sittingduck <duck@spamherelots.com> wrote in
news:Xns9D2D778E6A21Fduckrulestheuniverse@nomail.afraid.org:

> Glenn Beck Has Gone from Crazy Talk to Dangerous Incitement

Oh, I get it. You've been sent a new "talking point", how cute.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS361
&q=Glenn+Beck+Incitement&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Wow only 34,000 hits. You guys better get busy.

> By Jeff Musall

Another partisan hack.

Dan

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:22 pm
From: F. George McDuffee

distro pruned to AMC and RCM

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:45:10 -0800, sittingduck
<duck@spamherelots.com> wrote:

>Glenn Beck Has Gone from Crazy Talk to Dangerous Incitement
>By Jeff Musall
>The American conservative movement has devolved into an all fear movement,
>hopping from one hot-button "fear this" specter to another with a
>propaganda machine that would make many a fear-monger of the past blush.
<snip>
While a good conspiratorial view of history is always
entertaining, e.g. _The De Vinci Code_, it does not appear to
offer suggestions for any new productive/utile action
items/activities.

In many ways the current change is similar to that which occurred
in the transformation from medieval "Manorialism" or
"Seigneurialism" to the current money based economy and nation
states, complete with Don Quixote De La Mancha tilting at
windmills, and seeing things the way (or the way he wished) they
were, rather than as they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manorialism

While "free trade" and especially MIAs [Multilateral Investment
Agreements] as the basic enabling act for the "too big to fail"
transnational corporations outside the control of any national
government, may have seemed like a good idea at the time (at
least to the people in power) it is clear that forces have been
evoked and unleashed which *NO ONE* understands, let alone can
control.

FWIW -- as soon as capital is free to move under a MIA,
comparative advantage disappears leaving only absolute advantage.
Thus, invoking "comparative advantage" and MILs in the same
sentence is an oxymoron, as one precludes the other. In and of
itself this is adequate to explain much of the
deindustrialization and fall in average/median wages/benefits in
the developed countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateral_Agreement_on_Investment
http://www.globalpolicy.org/globalization/globalization-of-the-economy-2-1/multilateral-agreement-on-investment-2-5.html

Most unfortunately, this largely appears to be a "one-way"
irreversible change, short of general violent revolution combined
with large-scale carnage and general mayhem. The tipping point
is frequently economic depression, e.g. National Socialist
Germany. One of the major problems is that far too many of the
senior civil service functionaries and apparatchiks, as well as
the elected representatives, in both the UK and the US (and
indeed all the OECD countries), no longer have their primary
allegiance to their nation/citizens [which pays their
wages/pensions], but rather to some vague one-world ideal of a
"greater good."

It appears that both parties in both the UK and the US, i.e.
Labor/Tory, and Republican/Democrat are equally culpable, albeit
in different ways, in bringing us to this pass, therefore to
expect a simple replacement of one party with the other to
accomplish the many vital and urgently needed reforms [assuming
we wish to maintain our status as sovereign nation states under
democratic government] such as banking/financial restructuring
including control of "derivatives," limitations on imports,
immigration control/limitation, corporate tax
reform/restructuring (to prevent evasion), and governmental
deficit elimination/debt reduction is yet another example of the
perennial triumph of hope over experience.

Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:31 pm
From: sittingduck

D Murphy wrote:

> sittingduck <duck@spamherelots.com> wrote in
> news:Xns9D2D778E6A21Fduckrulestheuniverse@nomail.afraid.org:
>> Glenn Beck Has Gone from Crazy Talk to Dangerous Incitement
> Oh, I get it. You've been sent a new "talking point", how cute.
> <snip obonoxious conjecture>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS361
> &q=Glenn+Beck+Incitement&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
> Wow only 34,000 hits. You guys better get busy.
>> By Jeff Musall
> Another partisan hack.

Nothing but bitter, pedantic insults?
Reality bites, eh?

--
We have broken from reality--a psychotic Nation. Ignorance with a pretense of
knowledge replacing wisdom. -- Ron Paul

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:35 pm
From: sittingduck

F. George McDuffee wrote:

> It appears that both parties in both the UK and the US, i.e.
> Labor/Tory, and Republican/Democrat are equally culpable, albeit
> in different ways, in bringing us to this pass, therefore to
> expect a simple replacement of one party with the other to
> accomplish the many vital and urgently needed reforms [assuming
> we wish to maintain our status as sovereign nation states under
> democratic government] such as banking/financial restructuring
> including control of "derivatives," limitations on imports,
> immigration control/limitation, corporate tax
> reform/restructuring (to prevent evasion), and governmental
> deficit elimination/debt reduction is yet another example of the
> perennial triumph of hope over experience.

Very well said.

--
We have broken from reality--a psychotic Nation. Ignorance with a pretense
of knowledge replacing wisdom. -- Ron Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ping Don Foreman: ICD Alert
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/73fe240947f1f05b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:09 pm
From: Wes

Larry Jaques <ljaques@diversify.invalid> wrote:

>I was stunned one day when I had reached down to feel the floor outlet
>to see if the heater vent was working in my '90 F-150. I was doing
>about 30mph after leaving my driveway and as my hand came back up to
>the steering wheel, it hit the shifter and knocked it into reverse. In
>about 2 seconds, I sat on the road in complete silence in a non-moving
>truck. It had actually gone into reverse and stalled the engine,
>stopping the truck. That blew me away. I had no idea that an auto
>trans would allow that today, with all the other nanny crap we're
>"protected" by.
>

My 2001 Saturn will not go into an opposite gear until it feels like it. Also, in
reverse, the engine is governed low. That refusal to change direction sucks if you just
spun out on an icy road and need to go the other way to get out of on coming traffic.
Sitting there forcing your self to just let it idle for a moment is hard to do.

Wes

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Gunner News Agency
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/5cc22b57aa9c402b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:10 pm
From: "Buerste"

"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
news:109lo51m3nis03gjdo77b8k8plmppkd6a3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:21:35 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
> <buerste@buerste.com> scrawled the following:
>
>>"Larry Jaques" <ljaques@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:hqjio5li54ocp139rrbrjnkua754fatli9@4ax.com...
>
>>> Damnit, Tawm. Fix your quoting, will ya? I just called you on a
>>> rangerssuck post. He's in my twit list (gee, wonder why) so I wouldn't
>>> have seen his post had you not quoted it.
>>
>>Okey-dokey! I don't plonk often but today I killed Cliff, Curley, TMT and
>>a
>>couple of others. I won't add to the noise anymore, it's senseless to
>>feel
>>the libtard trolls, they'll never get it anyway.
>
> We'll try to hold you to this more tightly than we did the first
> couple time you said it. ;)
>
> Thanks, BTW.
>
> --
> Pessimist: One who, when he has the choice of two evils, chooses both.
> --Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

Relapses from recovery. Besides, too many things going on, work is busy,
jobs around the house, guns to tune and ammo to make. I still have the
catalog/webpage pix and copy to do, etc, etc,... Political bantering will
have to take a back seat and spanking the libfarts is getting old. They're
on their way back into obscurity anyway now that the public is hurting and
blaming the libtards who aren't even trying to mask their Socialist/Marxist
agenda anymore. Arrogant fucks!

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:24 pm
From: "Buerste"

"John D." <johndslocomb@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:652lo55pk822au8cqdc8kmpttp0fgo174i@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:21:48 -0600, Don Foreman
> <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:43:22 +0700, John D. <johndslocomb@invalid.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:06:26 -0800, Hawke
>>><davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gee, I can't wait. The signal to noise ratio certainly improves when
>>>>> he's not around.
>>>>> **************
>>>>>
>>>>> But I need to pick his brain about my 1911, I'm at a standstill trying
>>>>> to
>>>>> figure out some issues.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If your gun is a new one before you do anything else you need to break
>>>>it in. That means you have to shoot at least a thousand and preferably
>>>>2000 rounds of ball ammo through it. That's hardball ammo. Don't shoot
>>>>anything but round nosed ammo until you break it in. After your gun is
>>>>good and broken in then you can worry about SWC lead bullets, lower
>>>>power recoil springs, and other things. If you haven't shot the gun
>>>>enough to get it good and broken in then you're getting way ahead of
>>>>yourself. Many times people have all kinds of problems with brand new
>>>>1911s. They need to be shot a lot before you even think of going on to
>>>>other things. Some 1911s are good to go right out of the box but many
>>>>need a break in period. Shoot a thousand rounds or so of ball ammo and
>>>>see what happens. Make sure you use Wilson Combat magazines too.
>>>>
>>>>Hawke
>>>
>>>
>>>Question: Is this correct? I read various articles in gun magazines
>>>about "breaking-in" guns but in my own experience, which stopped
>>>abruptly in 1972, one bought a gun and it worked right out of the box
>>>and if it didn't you took it back.
>>>
>>>Certainly I never saw a 1911 that wouldn't function right out of the
>>>box. Of course, the only 1911's in those days were either war-surplus
>>>or made by Colt so I wonder; has manufacturing quality fallen that
>>>far?
>>>
>>>You break in your gun but not your automobile? Used to be 'tother way
>>>round.
>>>
>>>
>>>John D.
>>>(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)
>>
>>I have several semiautos. One of them, a Browning Buckmark .22LR, was
>>fussy about ammo at first. It's still a bit fussy after maybe 1500
>>rounds, but less so. Another that is slightly fussy about ammo is a
>>Colt 1911 Officer's which I got used. It appeared to have been carried
>>a lot but seldom fired. It had a bit of holster wear but the action
>>was and is tight as a tick. It's OK with factory ammo or handloads
>>that aren't too mild. 5.6 grains of W231 behind 200-grain lead SWC's
>>works well. That's a little lighter than Winchester White Box 230
>>grain but not a lot. I have chrony data, too lazy to get my range
>>notebook out.
>>
>>The rest of them, including the SA 1911 "loaded", are quite unfussy
>>about ammo for reliable operation.
>>
>>A recoil-operated semiauto (which is about all of them) needs some
>>"push back" from the shooter's grip to operate reliably. The inertial
>>mass of the frame isn't enough to get that done in the heavier
>>calibers. I've found .40S&W and .45ACP to be a bit more demanding
>>about that than 9mmp and smaller. Tom, you mention that you have
>>tender hands. Your problem might be that you're limpwristing your
>>.45. Please ignore anyone who tries to spin that comment as an
>>insult, it's merely a note from a fellow shooter. It matters
>>considerably less with your XD 9mmp and not at all with a revolver but
>>.40S&W and .45ACP require some starch in the shooter's grip. I had
>>that problem early on with my first handgun after a hiatus of 40
>>years, an XD .40. Figured it out after a couple hundred rounds,
>>stiffened up a bit to fix it.
>>
>>I agree with Hawke about the Wilson Combat magazines I've had no
>>issue with the Springfield mags but I've had better experience with
>>Wilson than with the Colt mags for the 1911 Officer's.
>
>
> Interesting. I bought one of the long barrel S&W model 41's when they
> first came out. Shot it for a while and later cut the barrel off (just
> before S&W did :-) and shot it for ten years or more. It worked right
> out of the box and never missed a lick in all the time I was shooting
> it. to the best of my recollection I never has a malfunction with it.
>
> Your comment about the firm grip is very topical. Most beginning
> shooters, shooting centerfire guns, have a lot of wrist movement. If
> you watch an experienced shooter you can see that there is almost no
> wrist movement. the shoulder moves back a bit and the arm moves up but
> the wrist stays straight.
>
>
> John D.
> (johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

It's how quickly can you get the sight picture back by distributing the
recoil over more muscle and bone and have the muscle memory to compensate.
Shooting follow-up shots with closed eyes tells a lot about grip issues.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:40 pm
From: "Buerste"

"John D." <johndslocomb@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:br2lo5ht3riqjk7329ampcpn3l8diorg5q@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:02:31 -0500, Wes <clutch@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>>Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Gee, I can't wait. The signal to noise ratio certainly improves when
>>>> he's not around.
>>>> **************
>>>>
>>>> But I need to pick his brain about my 1911, I'm at a standstill trying
>>>> to
>>>> figure out some issues.
>>>
>>>
>>>If your gun is a new one before you do anything else you need to break
>>>it in. That means you have to shoot at least a thousand and preferably
>>>2000 rounds of ball ammo through it. That's hardball ammo. Don't shoot
>>>anything but round nosed ammo until you break it in. After your gun is
>>>good and broken in then you can worry about SWC lead bullets, lower
>>>power recoil springs, and other things. If you haven't shot the gun
>>>enough to get it good and broken in then you're getting way ahead of
>>>yourself. Many times people have all kinds of problems with brand new
>>>1911s. They need to be shot a lot before you even think of going on to
>>>other things. Some 1911s are good to go right out of the box but many
>>>need a break in period. Shoot a thousand rounds or so of ball ammo and
>>>see what happens. Make sure you use Wilson Combat magazines too.
>>>
>>>Hawke
>>
>>What kind of 1911 are we discussing, a 1911 you can drop in the mud and do
>>all the nasty
>>things to that were done to the M9 and other candidates to replace it or
>>are we talking a
>>1911 that you shoot IDPA or PPC with? Those are two totally different
>>firearms as far
>>tolerances, fit, and cleaning requirements.
>>
>>Total agreement on having good mazazines. One should number theirs and
>>keep track of
>>misfeeds, if any, to tie the problem to a potentially bad magazine.
>>
>>Wes
>
> Actually, there are probably three kinds of 1911. The issue guns that
> in many cases were loose enough to rattle if you shook them; the Colt
> or other civilian guns and are pretty loose but don't rattle and the
> accurcized one from a gunsmith. But if I paid the money and had
> someone build me a PPC or IDPA gun and they told me that it needed
> breaking in I believe that I'd find a better gunsmith.
>
>
> John D.
> (johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

Mine is a SA Loaded and I don't believe it needs breaking in either. I
bought it from a guy with money problems and he said he only ran 100 rounds
through it. Upon inspection, I believed him. The only time I had any
problems were with Wolf ammo and it was dirty and Wolf ammo gets it filthy
very quickly. The extractor had some bad file marks on it and it was quite
bent and was really, really tight on the hook. I could see how the rim
groove wouldn't slide under it and thus the three-point jam. I just followed
the instructions in Jerry Kuhnhausen's "The Colt .45 Automatic - A shop
Manual"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pawn Shop Bargains ...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/b7474a867df329f8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:18 pm
From: cavelamb

Don Foreman wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:44:43 -0600, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Don Foreman wrote:
>>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:29:24 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
>>> <judybob@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Snag sez:
>>>>
>>>> "I think we may see a change in that , Robert . At least around here , there
>>>> seem to be more people pawning stuff , and fewer buyers . Ten bucks profit
>>>> each on twenty transactions beats 40 bucks each on no transactions ..."
>>>>
>>>> You are probably right. My reply was based on experience over 5 years old during the height of the
>>>> ebay craze. I had not factored in today's lousy economy.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Swinney
>>> You can inspect the goods at a pawn shop, and when you lay your money
>>> down you get the goods rather than a promise to ship from a faceless,
>>> sometimes anonymous, distant stranger.
>>>
>>> Helluvit is, the stuff in the pawn shop is sometimes there because of
>>> some working guy's tough luck: job loss or divorce, need to sell tools
>>> for cash to get by. They continue to hope for change while we who
>>> still have some jingle in our jeans scarf up their tools for a song.
>>>
>>> I'm not gloating. I'd like to see Americans who care to work be back
>>> at work.
>>>
>> That stuff in the pawn shop is also offered at near retail - with little
>> or no guarantees...
>
> In this area pawn shop prices are well below retail.

Not here, Don.
Prices are .9 Retail, at least.

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:29 pm
From: Wes

cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Not here, Don.
>Prices are .9 Retail, at least.
>

That is the asking price. What is the selling price?

Wes

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 3:01 pm
From: "Snag"

Wes wrote:
> cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Not here, Don.
>> Prices are .9 Retail, at least.
>>
>
> That is the asking price. What is the selling price?
>
> Wes

Heh , I got a glance of the tag when Greg pulled it off the nail gun I
just bought . They were askin' 40 bucks , he offered it to me for 20 .
Easily half of my power tools were purchased at this pawn shop , and they
know it . They also know it's my first stop when I need something .
I think I'm going to go with the HF battery drill , just not confident of
used batteries . There's no way that I know of to test those battery packs ,
at least with new I can get a warranty replacement if it's dead from the
gitgo . Replacement batteries for the name brand tools can easily cost more
than the tool ...
--
Snag
"90 FLHTCU "Strider"
'39 WLDD "PopCycle"
BS 132/SENS/DOF

==============================================================================
TOPIC: rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d0f999b9d830c840?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 1:40 pm
From: Wes

Pete Keillor <keillorp135@chartermi.net> wrote:

>>
>Well, I lost my pin the same way some time ago. I bought a 5C wrench,
>seldom need it. Usually for unscrewing. The main thing is make sure
>all your collets fit the threads on your closer. I've got some cheap
>ones which required cleaning up.
>Following is a link to a similar wrench, down the page a bit.
>http://www.mcmaster.com/#collet-wrenches/=609orz

Thanks for the tip on the collet wrench. I ended up fixing the 5c->MT4 1/2 adaptor.

Turned a .125D pip on the end of some 5/16" stock, reduced it just a bit more at the end
where it sticks though the adaptor to engage the collet slot.

That left me with a 6" piece of 5/16" stock with a pin on the end. Inserted in collet
adaptor, banged it in, cut off close to flush with a jewlers saw and did a little file
work to match the taper.

Having used this now, I notice I have to either put my spanner on the nut that holds the
nose protector to hold the spindle while I turn the drawbar or put it into backgear. Sucks
if you put it into backgear w/o pulling the pin and then start the motor.

So, your way has a lot going for it.

Wes

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gunlogix 102
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ddbce96971d01884?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:27 pm
From: sparky

On Feb 28, 7:45 am, Lookout <mrLook...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 05:57:18 -0500, Cliff
>
>
>
>
>
> <Clhuprichguessw...@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote:
>
> >http://lawblog.legalmatch.com/2010/02/22/if-you-dont-shoot-your-attac...
> > "If You Don t Shoot Your Attacker In Kansas Then Waive Bye-Bye To Claiming
> >Self-Defense"
> >[
> >Kansas is a whacky place, what with its impossibly flat land and endless fields
> >of wheat and sorghum (which is apparently a type of sustainable livestock feed
> >and ethanol fuel source), not to mention the perpetual parade of impervious
> >aliens and supernatural portals.
>
> >Well, the crazy Kansans of the Sunflower State can now add a new claim to fame
> >by being the only state that requires you to shoot your attacker with your gun
> >as a prerequisite to claiming self-defense, or else the defense will be waived
> >and you ll be charged with aggravated assault.
>
> >Hmm That new one doesn t quite roll off the tongue as easily as The Barbed
> >Wire Capital of the World.
>
> >In a recent case before the Kansas Court of Appeals, a majority of the court
> >held that under Kansas law, citizens who attempt to claim self-defense when
> >confronted by either the threat of harm which they reasonably believe will occur
> >or are under actual physical attack, can only claim the defense if they use
> >actual physical force against their attacker.
>
> >What constitutes actual physical force? Well in the case of State v. Flint
> >described in the previous paragraph, it meant that the defendant, Flint, had to
> >actually fire the gun he was holding at his attacker.
>
> >Sound weird? Well it sounds even stranger when you know the actual facts of the
> >case. Flint and his fianc e were in a bar when his fianc e got into an argument
> >with two male bar patrons. The argument eventually moved outside of the bar and
> >became more heated. Then somewhere along the line there was a scuffle and
> >Flint s fianc e end up on the floor. Flint then grabbed a gun from his car and
> >pointed it at the men who then backed off.
>
> He should have got in his car and left.
> Yes, HE was in the wrong.

Your IQ is even less than your shoe size. What an absolutly ignorant
statement.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Self-Replicating Hammer
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/403f9a5000f967e3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:51 pm
From: The Dougster

I don't know who wrote this bit, but it goes like this (words spoken
by folk singers like me, the world 'round):

With a hammer and a fire could make an axe, and cut down trees, and
split kindling, and build a bigger fire, and make another hammer, and
more fire, and another axe...

or something like that.

(badump bump goes the rim shot on the side man's drum kit)

I've taken this to heart. I have reduced the problem of the self-
replicating shelter to the self-replicating machine tool, and now it's
just the self-replicating hammer, at theaters near you. I need to
write an open-source screen play for it.

I've taken it to heart. My latest business cards have Replikon
Research and my DUNS, my name as Owner, a brief quote from the above,
and my email..

If you'd like a card (call it a QSL) from me, let me know by email or
snail mail, OK?

And let me know if you want the one with the above text items

*with, or without*

the nude pic of me posing the muscleman pose, on the other side! :)

Douglas (Dana) Goncz
Replikon Research
PO Box 4394
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bowers Boremike zero setting
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d571bc4d4e1220c1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 3:01 pm
From: "DoN. Nichols"

On 2010-02-28, oldjag <msmith5242@comcast.net> wrote:
> I have several Bowers Boremikes, on one of them the zero is off by
> 0.0003". I bought these used and have no manuals. They are the
> mechanical type with the plastic window over the micrometer barrel,
> this one covers the 3/4" to 1" range. When I check it against the ring
> gage it's reading high by 0.0003" so I'm guessing there must be some
> way of rotating the barrel or the spindle to compensate, but It does
> not seem obvious what to adjust. Anyone play with one of these?

Not with those, but look near the head for a hole for a
micrometer pin spanner type of thing for rotating the OD of the shank.
This is what is on my B&S/Tesa mechanical digital micrometer.

In the B&S/Tesa tri-mics there is a setscrew which allows the
thimble to be rotated IIRC.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Sunday, February 28, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

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