twitter: comp.lang.c - 25 new messages in 15 topics

comp.lang.c
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c?hl=en

comp.lang.c@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tournament 2010
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/53089344f7f6f8f8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 1 2010 11:47 pm
From: Mau C

Hi All,
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Best Regards,
M C

==============================================================================
TOPIC: automated sub-string search/replace algorithm...
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/6c021e75cf801832?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 12:05 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 1 Mar, 20:10, "Chris M. Thomasson" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
> "Ben Bacarisse" <ben.use...@bsb.me.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:0.c51fba21fc3b7f543f6d.20100301180710GMT.87pr3nex0x.fsf@bsb.me.uk...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Chris M. Thomasson" <n...@spam.invalid> writes:
>
> >> "Ben Bacarisse" <ben.use...@bsb.me.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:0.cfe2184fc46570e7992a.20100301133812GMT.871vg4f9h7.fsf@bsb.me.uk...
> >>> Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >>>> On 1 Mar, 13:07, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use...@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> >>>>> Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>> > On 28 Feb, 14:57, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use...@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> >>>>> >> "Chris M. Thomasson" <n...@spam.invalid> writes:
>
> >>>>> >> > This is basically the same as my original automated
> >>>>> sub-string >> > search:
>
> >>>>> >> >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_frm/thread/38aee559...
>
> >>>>> >> > except it generates a random exchange string and build an
> >>>>> >> > expected
> >>>>> >> > result string. It then runs the source string through the given
> >>>>> >> > replacement algorithm and checks to see if everything is Kosher.
>
> >>>>> >> > So far, both Edwards algorithm and mine are passing 10,000,000
> >>>>> >> > iterations. That's quite a bit of randomly generated data. I
> >>>>> >> > cannot
> >>>>> >> > seem to find any bugs in the algorithms as-is.
>
> >>>>> >> This is a useful example: 10 million tests and you have not yet
> >>>>> >> found the bug!
>
> >>>> there is a bug? I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying
> >>>> passing 10M tests significantly increased our confidence in the
> >>>> program. You were actually saying it didn't!
>
> >>> Yup. Chris accidentally took a version of the code that had a known
> >>> bug in it so, to me, the test became interesting: Can these random
> >>> tests find the bug we know to be there? It seems not (and I am not
> >>> really surprised).
>
> >> Are you referring to Edward's code? I don't know where the most recent
> >> version is. Could you be so kind as to point me toward the bug please?
> >> Humm, is it this one:
>
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/e3677e5f0cb30c43
>
> > No. The bug is the last one reported: that an attempt to match in an
> > empty string ends up by having the code use an indeterminate pointer.
>
> Ahhh! Well, the piece of shi% test does not create empty source strings, so
> no wonder why it failed to catch it. Stupid me!!!!!
>
> DAMN IT!!! GRRR!
>
> Okay... I will fix the random string generation so that it can create zero
> length strings and post it here when I get some time.
>
> BTW, thanks a lot Ben! I appreciate all of your input.- Hide quoted text -

this rather confirms the misgivings about random testing...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stylistic questions on UNIX C coding.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/51d2b24a60d73f18?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 12:28 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 1 Mar, 21:50, Ian Collins <ian-n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Julienne Walker wrote:

> > I'm sorry you disagree. Perhaps if you made it clear to everyone in
> > the world what you'd rather see, they'll change their beliefs to suit
> > your style. ;-)
>
> Eh? He did!

some people think there's a world outside clc!

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 12:32 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 27 Feb, 17:50, Casper H.S. Dik <Casper....@Sun.COM> wrote:
> Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >On 27 Feb, 13:56, Casper H.S. Dik <Casper....@Sun.COM> wrote:
> >> i...@localhost.claranet.nl (Ike Naar) writes:
>
> >> Things I absolutely hate in some c-styles are:
>
> >> if(condition)
>
> >> "if" is a not a *function* it shouldn't look like one.
>
> >I write it like this
> > if (condition)
> > some_func (x); /* <-- NOTE WELL */
>
> >and 'if' still doesn't look like a function to me
>
> It is fine with the space but not without (if() vs if ())

the point I was making was that I put the space in front of the
bracket BOTH for 'if' AND for a function invocation.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 12:35 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 27 Feb, 16:39, Rich Webb <bbew...@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:30:16 -0800 (PST), Nick Keighley
> <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On 27 Feb, 08:39, James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> >> Windows Notepad users are stuck with 8. Windows Wordpad users seem to
> >> be stuck with 6. These are not earlier than the 1980s.
>
> >> Come to think of it, apart from those two programs what do Windows
> >> users use to enter and edit source code?
>
> >the IDE, ConText, emacs, Word
>
> vi! Nowadays likely in its gvim incarnation, of course.

VI VI VI!
the editor of the beast

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 1:11 am
From: Branimir Maksimovic

Nick Keighley wrote:
> On 27 Feb, 16:39, Rich Webb <bbew...@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:30:16 -0800 (PST), Nick Keighley
>> <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 27 Feb, 08:39, James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>> Windows Notepad users are stuck with 8. Windows Wordpad users seem to
>>>> be stuck with 6. These are not earlier than the 1980s.
>>>> Come to think of it, apart from those two programs what do Windows
>>>> users use to enter and edit source code?
>>> the IDE, ConText, emacs, Word
>> vi! Nowadays likely in its gvim incarnation, of course.
>
> VI VI VI!
> the editor of the beast
>
Well, when I used VI it was because there wasn;t anything
better on machine. Who said: VI editor that beeps and corrupts you
files?
Once I encrypted my source code by accident with that thing.

Greets

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 1:53 am
From: Curtis Dyer

On 26 Feb 2010, Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Julienne Walker <happyfrosty@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> 4. Does anyone care where the pointer * is? I prefer keeping
>>> to next to the type, rather than next to the variable name.
>>>
>>> EG. I like: char* firstName; and not so much: char *firstName;
>>
>> Just make sure you're consistent and nobody will care. :-)
>
> Horrifically wrong.

I think it's a good bet that Julienne meant that the OP should be
consistent *with a reasonable style*.

> Just make sure you're consistent with
> everyone else, and nobody will care.

I don't know of any one style that's completely consistent with
everyone else.

But overall, you make a good point, since abominations such as

char *
foo( char*
*x ) {
/* ... */
}

and

void
bar( int*
y ) {
/* ... */
}

are consistent, but consistently awful.

--
"Don't worry about efficiency until you've attained correctness."
~ Eric Sosman, comp.lang.c

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 3:04 am
From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)

Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> writes:
>double rx, ry, rz; /* position */
>double vx, vy, vz; /* velocity */
>double ax, ay, az; /* acceleration */
>... is, to my eye, a lot more readable than
>/* position */
>double rx;
>double ry;
>double rz;

You can have your cake and eat it, too:

double rx; double ry; double rz; /* position */
double vx; double vy; double vz; /* velocity */
double ax; double ay; double az; /* acceleration */

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 4:04 am
From: Curtis Dyer

On 24 Feb 2010, James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> On 24 Feb, 18:35, Poster Matt <postermatt@no_spam_for_me.org>
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've a few questions concerning style when programming C on
>> UNIX systems. I don't want to look like an amateur. :)
>
> As a fellow amateur in C....

Another fellow amateur, here. :-)

>> 1. Having been programming in higher level languages for the
>> last 15 years, I'm finding it hard to get used to DEFINES in
>> all capitals. Is it really frowned on not to do so? Is
>> CamelCase acceptable?
>>
>> EG. '#define MaxNumFiles 1024' not '#define MAXNUMFILES 1024'.
>
> While I use them I don't like all caps for #defined values for
> two reasons
>
> 1) #defined values don't seem to me too far removed from global
> parameters.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "global parameters". Perhaps you
mean object identifiers that have file scope? If so, one crucial
difference that stands out to me is that macros may not expand to
lvalues.

#define MaxFoo 512

/* ... */

int main(void)
{
/* ... */

MaxFoo++; /* Whoops */

/* ... */
}

> Indeed if we change them to parameters in a function
> call they lose upper case status.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean.

> The two uses are similar. To
> my mind the format of the names should also be similar.
>
> 2) I'd prefer to reserve all caps for macros. Then they serve as
> a warning that parameters are not guaranteed to be evaluated
> exactly once.

Another distinction is that you can't use macro identifiers exactly
like function identifiers:

qsort(data, nitems, sizeof *data, compar);

> Many libraries use all caps for their constants.

I rather like Rob Pike's style and reasoning behind identifiers in
his _Notes on Programming in C_.

<http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/pikestyle.html>

<snip>

>> 4. Does anyone care where the pointer * is? I prefer keeping to
>> next to the type, rather than next to the variable name.
>>
>> EG. I like: char* firstName; and not so much: char *firstName;

I've occasionally seen:

char * firstname;

> It's normally as the latter due to
>
> char* FirstName, ch, *p;
> char *FirstName, ch, *p;

As Eric Sosman noted elsethread, I find that it depends on the
context, whether or not I include multiple declarations on the same
line.

I generally like to place the asterisk next to the declarator for
object declarations. For function prototypes and definitions, I
like to place the asterisk next to the return type.

> Regardless of which form is used I think only ch will be a char
> variable

Right.

> - i.e. "char*" can be misleading.

I think mainly to newcomers, but I can't imagine it being too
misleading for most C programmers.

<snip>

>> 5. On a slightly different note, I've been handling my error
>> messages by using #define string constants in a header file. I
>> saw some code which did this and it looked good to me. Is that
>> standard practise, if not what is?
>>
>> EG. #define ErrorDirNotFound "The directory was not found."
>
> That's much better than sprinkling messages throughout the code.
> If followed consistently it makes clear what messages the code
> can issue. Apart from clarity that would help if you ever want
> to release your code in another human language. There are better
> ways with more mechanism.

I believe some use enum constants, for example, as indexes for a
lookup table with error message strings.

> You may need a way to include variable values in your messages.

Format strings for the *printf() functions is one obvious way.

>> There are so many style guides out there, most of them say
>> contradictory things at one point or another. What do the pros
>> do?

As Julienne noted elsethread, the professionals are no more in
agreement, with regard to style, than the differing style guides.

>> Finally, before someone points this out... I know if I'm coding
>> for myself, and not following somebody else's stylistic
>> requirements, I can do whatever I want. However I'd like my
>> code to be 'acceptable looking' to the wider UNIX C community.
>
> Check some examples: K&R2, C Unleashed, books by Douglas Comer,
> the Linux source etc. Also there is a FAQ entry for style
> issues:
>
> http://c-faq.com/style/index.html

Also, I would imagine lurking in comp.unix.programmer would be
another good way to pick up on common Unix coding styles, as well as
good practices in general.

--
"Don't worry about efficiency until you've attained correctness."
~ Eric Sosman, comp.lang.c

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 5:30 am
From: Julienne Walker

On Mar 2, 7:04 am, Curtis Dyer <dye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2010, James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > On 24 Feb, 18:35, Poster Matt <postermatt@no_spam_for_me.org>
> > wrote:
>
> > While I use them I don't like all caps for #defined values for
> > two reasons
>
> > 1) #defined values don't seem to me too far removed from global
> > parameters.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here by "global parameters".

Most likely James meant the usual definition of a global variable in
C, which is an object with file scope and external linkage. But if
that's the case, and object macros are not too far removed from global
variables, we could make the same argument for literals, couldn't
we? ;-)

> > - i.e. "char*" can be misleading.
>
> I think mainly to newcomers, but I can't imagine it being too
> misleading for most C programmers.

I fail to see how char* x; is any more misleading than char *x;.
Either way the gotcha of char *x, y; still exists. Once you understand
the issue, it's a small matter of applying that knowledge. Of course,
char* x, *y; is pretty fugly, so the logical result is attaching to
the identifier in all cases (char *x, *y;), or splitting the
declarators across multiple statements: (char* x; char* y;).

Alternatively you could sidestep the issue with typedef:

typedef char* pchar;

pchar x, y;

Personally I'm not a fan of hiding levels of indirection behind a
typedef, but whatever floats your boat.

Ah, much ado about a trivial matter. Such is the way of clc. ^_^

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 6:03 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 2 Mar, 12:04, Curtis Dyer <dye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2010, James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com>
> > On 24 Feb, 18:35, Poster Matt <postermatt@no_spam_for_me.org>

> >> I've a few questions concerning style when programming C on
> >> UNIX systems. I don't want to look like an amateur. :)
>
> > As a fellow amateur in C....
>
> Another fellow amateur, here. :-)
>
> >> 1. Having been programming in higher level languages for the
> >> last 15 years, I'm finding it hard to get used to DEFINES in
> >> all capitals. Is it really frowned on not to do so? Is
> >> CamelCase acceptable?
>
> >> EG. '#define MaxNumFiles 1024' not '#define MAXNUMFILES 1024'.

pre-processor macros have nasty semantics so its worth making them
standout.

> > While I use them I don't like all caps for #defined values for
> > two reasons
>
> > 1) #defined values don't seem to me too far removed from global
> > parameters.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here by "global parameters".

nor me. If he meant "global variable" the that means either file scope
with internal linkage or file scope with external linkage. I suppose
"global parameter" might be one of these.

int adjust = 10;

int make_adjustment (int fiddle)
{
mass_adjust (adjust + fiddle);
}

void do_stuff (int bing)
{
adjust = 0;
make_adjustment ();
}

an abomination, but it happens (call backs without a needed parameter
are one excuse). I don't really see #defines as being like global
variables even though they have file scope.

> Perhaps you
> mean object identifiers that have file scope? If so, one crucial
> difference that stands out to me is that macros may not expand to
> lvalues.
>
> #define MaxFoo 512
>
> /* ... */
>
> int main(void)
> {
> /* ... */
>
> MaxFoo++; /* Whoops */
>
> /* ... */
> }

well they can if you use them to alias an l-value

int max_foo;
#define MAXFOO max_foo

MAXFOO++

not a good idea but...

> > Indeed if we change them to parameters in a function
> > call they lose upper case status.
>
> Again, I'm not sure what you mean.

me neither!

> > The two uses are similar.

which two uses!

> > To
> > my mind the format of the names should also be similar.
>
> > 2) I'd prefer to reserve all caps for macros. Then they serve as
> > a warning that parameters are not guaranteed to be evaluated
> > exactly once.

what? I thought you were explaining why you weren't using all caps for
macros?! Did you mean value macros and function-like macros?

#define MaxFoo 127
#define INC(X) (X++)

> Another distinction is that you can't use macro identifiers exactly
> like function identifiers:
>
> qsort(data, nitems, sizeof *data, compar);

why not? I just don't follow you.

<snip>

> >> 4. Does anyone care where the pointer * is?

oh yes! C programmers are nothing if not opinionated!

<snip>

> > - i.e. "char*" can be misleading.
>
> I think mainly to newcomers, but I can't imagine it being too
> misleading for most C programmers.

the C++ people seem to mange ok

<snip>

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 6:06 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 2 Mar, 09:11, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nick Keighley wrote:
> > On 27 Feb, 16:39, Rich Webb <bbew...@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:30:16 -0800 (PST), Nick Keighley
> >> <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On 27 Feb, 08:39, James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> >>>> [...] what do Windows
> >>>> users use to enter and edit source code?
>
> >>> the IDE, ConText, emacs, Word
> >> vi! Nowadays likely in its gvim incarnation, of course.
>
> > VI VI VI!
> > the editor of the beast
>
> Well, when I used VI it was because there wasn;t anything
> better on machine. Who said: VI editor that beeps and corrupts you
> files?
> Once I encrypted my source code by accident with that thing.

"The Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it"
text editor--complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving,
dangerous. TECO, to be precise."

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/539027b6e6e614c4?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Warning to newbies
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/9597fd702985dff4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 12:58 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 1 Mar, 21:14, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> > On 2010-02-06, blmblm myrealbox.com <blm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:

> > > I notice that you use "++i" where I think the majority of C
> > > programmers would write "i++". What's your rationale for doing so?
> > > I prefer ++i myself, but my reasons for doing so seem a bit flimsy,
> > > and I wonder whether I should just follow the majority ....
>
> > A couple of things:
>
> > 1. In my native language (English), "increment i" is more idiomatic than
> > "i increment", so it's easier to pronounce.
>
> Do you also write "+= x 2", then? Because "increase x by two" is more
> idiomatic than *"x increase by 2". If you want to apply that principle,
> Forth seems a better language to apply it to, to me.

ah! so Lisp is easier to read than C!

(+! x 2)

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TOPIC: Beauty of declarations.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/43754d0a267c21c2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 1:30 am
From: Malcolm McLean

On Mar 2, 2:58 am, Kaz Kylheku <kkylh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Somehow we are not likely to see a mass migration of Matlab users to C.
>
Matlab has C and Fortran interfaces. So you can write functions in C.

Pretty much the first thing I did on getting my Matlab system was to
root out the C subsytem and start coding functions in C.
However actually the gain in speed doesn't seem to be that great. It
doesn't interface nicely with the rest of the system, and it's very
difficult to debug. A segfault will take down Matlab, without a
readable error message, which makes testing very tedious.

However I think that at least some Matlab programmers will go in the
other direction, taking up C to write processor-intensive library
functions.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 5:13 am
From: "bartc"

"Malcolm McLean" <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a51aa5ce-bb06-4a49-b652-3327a63f25d6@q23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> I've been programming mainly in Matlab now for a couple of months.
>
> Like many high-level languages, Matlab allows variables to be created
> on the fly. This is a real nuisance. If you make a spelling mistake,
> the function will execute. Then if the mispell is a lvalue it will
> happily assign to the wrong variable. If it is a rvalue then the code
> stops, at that point.
> The problem is that some functions take hours to run. So a quick
> modificiation, say in a routine to print out the results, can blow the
> whole thing away. Testing on small data sets can sometimes be easier
> said than done.
>
> The C system, whereby a misspelt variable name will result in a
> compiling or linking error, is far more convenient.

The same problem can occur in C:

double x=0,y=0;

x=fn();

printf("Result = %f\n",y);

After hours waiting for the function to execute, the result is placed in the
wrong variable.

That is, if the wrong name coincides with another declared name of the right
type.

But yes, typing a non-existent name is more difficult in C and other
languages that work the same way. Although, you might have expected Matlab
to have warned that the variable assigned to was not used anywhere else.

--
Bartc

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is the explanation?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/43491a16c11fd4e0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 3:28 am
From: Michael Foukarakis

On Mar 1, 7:17 pm, "osmium" <r124c4u...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Kenneth Brody wrote:
> > On 2/27/2010 1:16 AM, Tadpole wrote:
> > [...]
> >> if ( (x != 7) || (x != 8))
> >> printf ("%d ",x);
> > [...]
> >> Question 2 : I dont want 7 and 8 to be printed. X is not to be 7
> >> or 8. But why they are still printed?
>
> > Because 8 it not equal to 7, and 7 is not equal to 8. It is not
> > possible for "x != 7" and "x != 8" to both be false.
>
> >> What is the correct statement to write?
>
> > if ( (x != 7) && (x != 8) )
>
> > To a computer, the concepts of "and" and "or" are not exactly the
> > same as in spoken human communication.
>
> > Consider "show me a list of clients living in New York and New
> > Jersey". If you tell a computer:
>
> > if ( state == state_NY && state == state_NJ )
>
> > you're not going to get very many hits, because the state cannot be
> > both New York _and_ New Jersey at the same time.
>
> > The "correct" way to ask is "show me a list of clients whose address
> > is either New York _or_ New Jersey":
>
> > if ( state == state_NY || state == state_NJ )
>
> Which ignores the point made upstream that the English language is ambiguous
> WRT the word "or".

No it doesn't, no it isn't, and !(x == a || x == b) is equivalent to
(x != a && x != b).

> Do you want a Coke or a Pepsi?

Yes. I want a Coke, or a Pepsi. Make haste.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wholesale Sports Shoes Clear Air Force One AAA++quality（www.cnnshoe.
com）
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/da767c277f42ad08?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 4:10 am
From: linlin0008 wu

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Edward Nilges' lie
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/14c6f4a4afe68f60?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 4:35 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 1 Mar, 04:18, spinoza1111 <spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<stuff>

I thought you weren't posting anymore?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Error with threads opening files
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/2dc4e1c41436509b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 5:17 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 1 Mar, 17:23, Richard <rgrd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> gaze...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes:
> > In article <IU.D20100301.T104733.P53605...@J.de.Boyne.Pollard.localhost>,
> > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgro...@NTLWorld.COM>

<snip>

> >>This clearly isn't the actual code of your program, as others have
> >>pointed out. And for diagnosing bugs we have tools known as debuggers.
> >>[...]
>
> > Debuggers are completely off-topic (OT) in comp.lang.c (CLC).
>
> > Furthermore, nobody here uses them.
>
> Indeed. I have it on good authority from some c.l.c master that its FAR
> easier to write it correctly first than it is to debug it
> later. Debuggers merely encourage lax approach and poor adherence to
> good development practises apparently. Quite a surprise to me who had
> won various pay rises, bonuses etc based on time to productivity and
> closure rate on new code bases I was asked to fix or
> enhance. Apparently, according to c.l.c regs, you need a time machine to
> go back and rewrite the 3 million lines you've been tasked with
> maintaining 12 years into its lifespan PROPERLY but, hey, what do I
> know? Me? I found it trivial to locate certain through points and set a
> HW breakpoint for values which caused core dumps to then analyse the
> backtrace and find where the problems began. Apparently thats all
> bullshit and reading the code (all 5000 pages) while taking a dump would
> have been FAR more productive.
>
> Me? I think intelligent use of one makes you a far better analyst since
> you can fast forward trap conditions and border conditions which are
> more likely to affect the overall data flow and design of the
> program. In addition to can watch the flow of the program and soon get a
> good idea for the most common execution flows.
>
> Lots of others agree too and the articles on using one are quite
> persuasive. But then that would mean learning how to use one properly as
> opposed to littering code with printfs like some Basic wielding pimply
> teenager 20 odd years ago as is suggested by the c.l.c elite.

Richard ??? has a rather biased view of these matters. Checks clc's
archives for other points of view if you care.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Concerns Heathfield's and Seebach's behavior: please read
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/cc475a35adc056e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 5:26 am
From: Nick Keighley

On 2 Mar, 07:44, "Chris M. Thomasson" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
> "Malcolm McLean" <malcolm.mcle...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
> news:15f5a57d-963d-467e-b89e-4b72ce184d1a@15g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 2, 12:07 am, "Chris M. Thomasson" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Ummm... I think that Julienne and blm are smart enough to not ever want
> > > to
> > > be in the presence of a thug. Why do you think they would be so stupid?
>
> > It's in woman's interest to make sure her offspring have the best
> > genes possible, which means mating with a socially dominant male.
> > Thugs are often dominant. It doesn't really matter whether that means
> > "dominant within a small sub-society" or "dominant within broader
> > society". The leader of a street gang will probably father a great
> > many children.
> > There are other factors, of course. She's also got to try to
> > monopolise the male's resources. So the ideal strategy is to get a
> > thug and convert him - at least as far as domestic thuggishness goes.
> > This is easier said than done.
> > Stupidity doesn't enter into it. It's all calculation of genetic
> > interest.
>
> Women are way more complex than you think they are. You only "think" that
> you can successfully decode them.

simplistic sociobiology has about as much value as astrology.
The homeopathic equivalent of thought.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: UTF-8 and wchar_t
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/6e69f9f50e29243f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 5:28 am
From: Michal Nazarewicz

Hello everyone,

I am facing a situation where I need to handle UTF-8 input along with
input from standard input (ie. locale dependent multibyte). In the end,
after some computations, concatenations, etc I need to output it to
standard output (again locale dependent multibyte).

What I want to do is convert both the UTF-8 input as well as data from
standard input to an array of wchar_t and then output it using wprintf()
(or one of the other "wide" functions).

It is my understanding, however, that implementation may choose any kind
of encoding for wchar_t which means that I cannot simply assume it
stores unicode code points.

On the other hand, is my understanding correct that if
__STDC_ISO_10646__ macro is defined then wchar_t in fact represent
unicode code points? If so then I could check for that macro and signal
#error if it's not defined, right?

Also, what happens when I say to wprintf() a string which contains wide
character which has no representation in current locale (ie. some funky
unicode character where locale is set to ISO-8859-1 encoding)? Can
I somehow instruct the standard library function to print, say,
a question mark in such situations or do I have to handle such cases by
myself?

--
Best regards, _ _
.o. | Liege of Serenly Enlightened Majesty of o' \,=./ `o
..o | Computer Science, Michal "mina86" Nazarewicz (o o)
ooo +--<mina86*tlen.pl>--<jid:mina86*jabber.org>--ooO--(_)--Ooo--

==============================================================================
TOPIC: usage of size_t
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/19e0ad96d01b9898?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 6:30 am
From: Kelsey Bjarnason

[snips]

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:15:52 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:

> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
>
>> Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> writes:
>> > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:16:24 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:
>> >> Yes, but you are on record as never having had to contend with tiny,
>> >> small, medium, compact, large and huge memory models. Things could
>> >> get... interesting.
>> >
>> > Particularly since two pointers which actually point to the same
>> > thing may not compare equal, due to segment:offset varations.
>> >
>> > At least huge pointers normalized. :)
>> >
>> > (It is *so* nice not to have to deal with that crap anymore.)
>>
>> If two pointers that point to the same thing don't compare equal, then
>> the implementation is non-conforming. C99 6.5.9p6:
>
> IIRC the only way to get two such pointers was by pointer manipulation
> that would be considered to have undefined behaviour in ISO C, BICBW.

Not necessarily.

Consider an array, and two pointers. Set one to, say, the 20th element,
set the other to the first element and increment it 20 times. Both refer
to the same position in memory, but there's no guarantee - at least with
"far" pointers - that they will compare equal.

This was a side effect of the fact that in the x86 segmented memory
models (eg 16-bit-land) the same address could have multiple
representations, so without normalization, there was no assurance the
pointers would be equal, despite being equivalent.

huge pointers, by contrast, were normalized, so this problem didn't
occur, but the normalization imposed an overhead, which, if you didn't
need it, was pointless.

"Regular" - unadorned, plain, standard C-style pointers - were neither
far nor huge, were limited (IIRC) to a single segment and as a result
needed no segment portion of their address - and thus didn't suffer the
same issue.

DOS. The short route to insanity. :)

==============================================================================

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010

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