twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 10 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Liberals Smarter Than Conservatives
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/30a39cd522bcf038?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 10:00 am
From: Cliff

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:30:45 -0700, Aratzio <a6ahlyv02@sneakemail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:03:02 -0400, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
>Cliff <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> got double secret
>probation for writing:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:11:14 -0800, Aratzio <a6ahlyv02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>Every time you post, you make a fence post look smarter and smarter.
>>>>>>>>Even
>>>>>>>>on the electrical, I claimed a static charge voltage was unknown, you
>>>>>>>>claimed I was wrong and later said the voltage was unknown. Study the
>>>>>>>>fence
>>>>>>>>post, it doesn't do stupid things like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you claimed it went "to who knows where". I said that was wrong. I
>>>>>>> even gave you one of the simple methods in which an electrostatic
>>>>>>> potential can dissipate. That you failed to understand the physics is
>>>>>>> of no fault of mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The "where" I was referring to was a voltage, as in where on the voltage
>>>>>>scale, not a physical location.
>>>>>
>>>>> So your complaint with respect to electrical potentials is that an
>>>>> undefined variable is not defined?
>>>>
>>>>I had no complaint about it, I merely mentioned it and Cliff replied "NOPE".
>>>>
>>>>>>People with common sense would not need it
>>>>>>explained but evidently that excludes you. I said "voltage" floating off,
>>>>>>not electrons or charge floating off.
>>>>>
>>>>> BWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAHAAAA*OH SHIT*HAAAAAAAHAAAA*SNORT*HAAAAA
>>>>> Really, that was common sense? Seriously?
>>>>
>>>>Sense that voltage is referring to voltage? Is that difficult to
>>>>understand.
>>>
>>>No, but it is still hilarious.
>>>
>>>So, what do you think is the actual difference between charge and
>>>voltage?
>>
>> In a 16 guage solid Copper wire carrying 5 amps how
>>fast is the average electron moving?
>
>It looked like the holes were moving to me.
>
>> What is the speed of light?
>
>Constant.
>
>> If I have a light switch 100 miles from the LED it turns
>>on how long does it take to get light once I turn
>>it on?
>
>Dunno, how long does it take for the diode to conduct?
>What is the capacitive load of the line(s)?
>Are you using switching AC or DC?
>Any circuitry on the end?
>Green or Red LED?
>Normal or superbright?
>Switched on by logic or direct from source?
>
>But you do have photon emmission the instant the LED turns on.
>

Qs were for Roger, actually.
I think he's lost somewhere near Akron.
Perhaps his hallucinations & voices failed him again.
--
Cliff

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 10:56 am
From: Down The Rabbit Hole

>> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:03:02 -0400, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
>> Cliff <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> got double secret
>> probation for writing:
>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:11:14 -0800, Aratzio <a6ahlyv02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every time you post, you make a fence post look smarter and smarter.
>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>> on the electrical, I claimed a static charge voltage was unknown, you
>>>>>>>>> claimed I was wrong and later said the voltage was unknown. Study the
>>>>>>>>> fence
>>>>>>>>> post, it doesn't do stupid things like that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you claimed it went "to who knows where". I said that was wrong. I
>>>>>>>> even gave you one of the simple methods in which an electrostatic
>>>>>>>> potential can dissipate. That you failed to understand the physics is
>>>>>>>> of no fault of mine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "where" I was referring to was a voltage, as in where on the voltage
>>>>>>> scale, not a physical location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So your complaint with respect to electrical potentials is that an
>>>>>> undefined variable is not defined?
>>>>>
>>>>> I had no complaint about it, I merely mentioned it and Cliff replied "NOPE".
>>>>>
>>>>>>> People with common sense would not need it
>>>>>>> explained but evidently that excludes you. I said "voltage" floating off,
>>>>>>> not electrons or charge floating off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAHAAAA*OH SHIT*HAAAAAAAHAAAA*SNORT*HAAAAA
>>>>>> Really, that was common sense? Seriously?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sense that voltage is referring to voltage? Is that difficult to
>>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>> No, but it is still hilarious.
>>>>
>>>> So, what do you think is the actual difference between charge and
>>>> voltage?
>>>
>>> In a 16 guage solid Copper wire carrying 5 amps how
>>> fast is the average electron moving?
>>
>> It looked like the holes were moving to me.
>>
>>> What is the speed of light?
>>
>> Constant.
>>
>>> If I have a light switch 100 miles from the LED it turns
>>> on how long does it take to get light once I turn
>>> it on?

The speed of light, because electricity travels at the speed of light.
186,000 miles per second * 100 miles.

If it didn't then incandescent light from electricity couldn't be
continuous it would need to buffer like the cheap internet needs to buffer.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Militant Ignoranti
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9f00b27969b00d1e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 10:06 am
From: Cliff

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:51:00 -0500, Richard J Kinch <kinch@truetex.com> wrote:

>Cliff writes:
>
>> ... flunkies for the Discovery Institute ...
>
>Say, that would be me! Page 12 here:
>
> http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=619

??
--
Cliff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT be careful driving through Illinoisstan
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9c17389b1e9d1a9c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 10:50 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Taxes are like feeding sharks. They just multiply, and need
more food.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Buerste" <buerste@buerste.com> wrote in message
news:hnkgeo$q73$1@speranza.aioe.org...

I must be low on Testosterone, I always drive the speed
limit, keep a safe
distance, obey all the laws and drive defensively. But, I
see a big
increase in enforcement. I'm glad there are so many
volunteers to pay THAT
tax so that I don't have to.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:04 pm
From: RBnDFW

Buerste wrote:
> "Don Foreman" <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
> news:f8drp51dhq64dlkqe2rfmnmoi3vav6f4l6@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:21:08 -0500, Ignoramus27323
>> <ignoramus27323@NOSPAM.27323.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I want to report my recent sightings, that, in my interpretation,
>>> indicate much increased police activity towards fining motorists.
>>>
>>> 1. The recent story with near impounding of my perfectly legal
>>> trailer.
>>>
>>> 2. Today I had to drive 15 miles on a highway and back, twice. (took
>>> my son to a sunday school where he learns Lego robotics). I saw at
>>> least 8 state police cars with speed radar guns, and 5 or so ones
>>> in the process of stopping motorists.This is a very unusual number.
>>>
>>> The state of IL is near insolvency, and many municipalities are in a
>>> bad financial condition also, desperate to raise money in any way they
>>> can.
>>>
>>> This is my explanation for this high level of police looking for
>>> someone to fine. From now on, I will be driving at the speed limit
>>> speed until I see some changes.
>>>
>>> i
>> Suffer stoicly while driving lawfully until enforcement abates.
>>
>
> I must be low on Testosterone, I always drive the speed limit, keep a safe
> distance, obey all the laws and drive defensively. But, I see a big
> increase in enforcement. I'm glad there are so many volunteers to pay THAT
> tax so that I don't have to.

As long as you comply with the "Left lane for passing only", have at it :)

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:06 pm
From: RBnDFW

John R. Carroll wrote:
> "Ignoramus27323" <ignoramus27323@NOSPAM.27323.invalid> wrote in message
> news:u9edndymd_cJBADWnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> I want to report my recent sightings, that, in my interpretation,
>> indicate much increased police activity towards fining motorists.
>>
>> 1. The recent story with near impounding of my perfectly legal
>> trailer.
>>
>> 2. Today I had to drive 15 miles on a highway and back, twice. (took
>> my son to a sunday school where he learns Lego robotics). I saw at
>> least 8 state police cars with speed radar guns, and 5 or so ones
>> in the process of stopping motorists.This is a very unusual number.
>>
>> The state of IL is near insolvency, and many municipalities are in a
>> bad financial condition also, desperate to raise money in any way they
>> can.
>>
>> This is my explanation for this high level of police looking for
>> someone to fine. From now on, I will be driving at the speed limit
>> speed until I see some changes.
>>
>
> Same thing here in California.
> We had a guy working off a 1000 dollar fine by community service about two
> months ago because he'd tossed a butt on the street.
> He wasn't even driving and the patrol car had to turn around to nab him.

If they did that here in DFW they could fund all local government
indefinitely.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:07 pm
From: RBnDFW

Ignoramus14095 wrote:
> On 2010-03-15, Larry Jaques <ljaques@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 04:36:03 -0500, the infamous Wes
>> <clutch@lycos.com> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> The fine was for illegal dumping of deadly carcinogenic substances, not littering. ;)
>> And if not that, "illegal creation of excess CO2" or "attempted arson"
>> might do. Watch for it at a cop shop near you!
>
> "Excess unlicensed personal methane production".

"Hark! Was that an unregulated release of carbon I just heard?"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Source for 4340 bar stock?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/670786a6a14e58b2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 10:57 am
From: Tim Wescott

Ed Huntress wrote:
> "Louis Ohland" <ohland@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:Va7nn.10479$ao7.5225@newsfe21.iad...
>> On 3/14/2010 09:55, Snag wrote:
>>> Wes wrote:
>>>> Louis Ohland<ohland@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> What are you making?
>>>>>> Andrew VK3BFA.
>>>>> Small rifle action @ 22LR / 5mm / 22WMR / 22 K Hornet
>>>> What type of action?
>>>>
>>>> Wes
>>> Enquiring minds want to know !
>>>
>> It's a bit odd. A cylindrical falling block design from Bill Holmes.
>> Roughly 1" wide, 2" tall, 4" long. The falling block, er, shaft, is .750"
>> diameter.
>
> Frank DeHaas ("Mr. Single Shot") designed one like that many years ago, to
> be made with a lathe, for people who didn't have a shaper to carve out the
> rectangle in a conventional falling-block action. Supposedly, it worked very
> well. I still have a falling-block action for .22 Hornet, a semi-replica of
> a Farquharson, that I'm saving to finish when I retire. That may be after
> I'm dead. <g>
>
>> I was talking to my neighbor about it, and there may be some EDM and heat
>> treating shops in the ares. EDM would make a rectangular falling block so
>> much easier.
>
> Caution. I have investigated this at considerable length. I also was once
> pretty knowledgeable about EDMed surfaces, although I'm somewhat behind.
> EDMed surfaces under shock and tension in a rifle action are not a healthy
> mix. If you want to know more, we can discuss it.
>
Can you fix that with shot peening or other treatments?

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:18 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.now> wrote in message
news:JJednTuLvuuo6APWnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@web-ster.com...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> "Louis Ohland" <ohland@charter.net> wrote in message
>> news:Va7nn.10479$ao7.5225@newsfe21.iad...
>>> On 3/14/2010 09:55, Snag wrote:
>>>> Wes wrote:
>>>>> Louis Ohland<ohland@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> What are you making?
>>>>>>> Andrew VK3BFA.
>>>>>> Small rifle action @ 22LR / 5mm / 22WMR / 22 K Hornet
>>>>> What type of action?
>>>>>
>>>>> Wes
>>>> Enquiring minds want to know !
>>>>
>>> It's a bit odd. A cylindrical falling block design from Bill Holmes.
>>> Roughly 1" wide, 2" tall, 4" long. The falling block, er, shaft, is
>>> .750" diameter.
>>
>> Frank DeHaas ("Mr. Single Shot") designed one like that many years ago,
>> to be made with a lathe, for people who didn't have a shaper to carve out
>> the rectangle in a conventional falling-block action. Supposedly, it
>> worked very well. I still have a falling-block action for .22 Hornet, a
>> semi-replica of a Farquharson, that I'm saving to finish when I retire.
>> That may be after I'm dead. <g>
>>
>>> I was talking to my neighbor about it, and there may be some EDM and
>>> heat treating shops in the ares. EDM would make a rectangular falling
>>> block so much easier.
>>
>> Caution. I have investigated this at considerable length. I also was once
>> pretty knowledgeable about EDMed surfaces, although I'm somewhat behind.
>> EDMed surfaces under shock and tension in a rifle action are not a
>> healthy mix. If you want to know more, we can discuss it.
>>
> Can you fix that with shot peening or other treatments?

No, not completely. The essential problem is that EDMing causes microcracks.
Peening just covers them up.

There's a lot more to it. The best equipment and the best techique can, for
all important purposes, get rid of microcracks. But the surface is still
remelted steel (the recast layer), and I would lap it off even using the
best EDM techique.

You may see photomicrographs of EDMed surfaces that show complete removal of
the recast layer, and no microcracks. But read carefully about how those
surfaces were accomplished. Generally they're the result of using the most
sophisticated techniques, in the hands of experts.

So the answer is, it can be done. But the typical toolmaker using typical
equipment may not do it, even if he thinks he is, because his molds and dies
never crack. The receiver of a falling-block rifle, which has to withstand
50,000 cup, is not a lunchbox mold.

I wouldn't shoot the gun, unless it has been proof tested multiple times. It
just isn't worth it. If you used good technique and left at least 0.002" for
mechanical finishing, it would be a different story. I've schemed up ways to
lap the surface but I've never tried it.

Before building a single-shot rifle, anyone should read deHaas's books. He's
the expert. His son has one or more books out, too. I haven't read them but
his dad knows his stuff, so they're probably good. DeHaas also is an
experienced critic of the common single-shot actions, and a designer of
several well-regarded ones himself. I'd stick to one of his designs or make
a straight replica of a Winchester Hi-Wall.

--
Ed Huntress

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:14 pm
From: Louis Ohland

> Before building a single-shot rifle, anyone should read deHaas's books. He's
> the expert. His son has one or more books out, too. I haven't read them but
> his dad knows his stuff, so they're probably good. DeHaas also is an
> experienced critic of the common single-shot actions, and a designer of
> several well-regarded ones himself. I'd stick to one of his designs or make
> a straight replica of a Winchester Hi-Wall.
>

I have at least three of DeHaas' books. My dad got wired up on this Bill
Holmes design.

The significant question is how do you machine the passage for the block
so it's got somewhat square corners? Or is a slight radius OK? I see the
square broaches, but isn't an acutely square corner a good place for a
crack to start?

One approach would be to drill four holes at the corners of the block
passage, broach them square, then use a hole saw for gross metal
removal, followed by a 1/2" mill to square up the sides. Is there a less
manly-man way of doing it?

Before someone mentions casting, that is not an option.

For those up on DeHaas, look at the Chicopee RF. Problems: 3/16 CRS
plates welded or silver soldered to barrel area. I like the swinging
block, but I'm not sure it would do well with the 5mm. Look at the
Chicopee CF action, and the bolt locking arrangement goes from a milled
shaft (RF) to sort of a rolling block design (CF).

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Brake Pad options
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/411e47c7b9953b40?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:10 am
From: "pdrahn@coinet.com"

On Mar 15, 9:33 am, Ned Simmons <n...@nedsim.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:05:04 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3.DO...@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Pete C." wrote:
>
> >> Ned Simmons wrote:
>
> >> > On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:34:07 -0500, Ned Simmons <n...@nedsim.com>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > >I'm working on a fail safe brake along the lines of an elevator safety
> >> > >brake -- it will prevent a heavy load from falling if the supporting
> >> > >roller chain breaks. I need brake pads that can be attached to the
> >> > >device that will bear on a large rectangular tube column when
> >> > >activated, 4 pads near the corners of the column. I found some rough
> >> > >dimensions online of performance auto disc brake pads that are about
> >> > >2" square, which seems appropriate. The four pads will be required to
> >> > >support about 3000 pounds total.
>
> >> > >Potential problems with automotive pads? Any suggestions other than
> >> > >auto pads? McMaster has lining material, but I'd rather not design and
> >> > >fabricate something that can be more easily purchased.
>
> >> > A picture of the device. The purple plates are 15x22x3/4 and there's
> >> > 5/8" clearance between the plates and the gray column. No clearance
> >> > between the column and the yellow chain brackets.
> >> >http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmons/news/VerticalCar100315a.jpg
>
> >> > --
> >> > Ned Simmons
>
> >> The ratchet plate I mentioned in my other post could readily fit in that
> >> 5/8" clearance you have. Indeed, you could do one on either side, double
> >> ratcheted, providing four ratchet surfaces and you could make the pawl
> >> plates engage several teeth, so you should be able to handle any
> >> possible load.
>
> >Looking further at your drawing, I'd take a close look at the two column
> >auto lifts and see if one of those might provide a good starting point
> >to modify for your application and save some work. These lifts are
> >remarkably inexpensive these days, ~$3k for a basic one.
>
> Thanks, Pete. I knew I had seen those ratcheting safeties, but
> couldn't remember where. I started looking at patents for auto lift
> safeties and see that some use a slotted bar, which hadn't occurred to
> me and looks promising.
>
> For example:http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=HaEvAAAAEBAJ&dq=4331219
>
> Re the auto lift as a whole, the most restrictive factor in the design
> of this device was the available space. It also travels at a much
> higher speed than an auto lift and supports very asymmetrical overhung
> loads in some orientatiions. It was supposed to be a quick and dirty
> prototype, but is morphing into a permanent solution, if all the
> safety issues can be addressed. I wish I could say more -- the
> manufacturing operation is pretty wild and metal related.
>
> --
> Ned Simmons

Ned, can we explore this a little further. Will the safety be such
that once activated, it will never be released? Or will the safety be
required to operate on a regular basis? The answer will point you in
the direction of the simplest device to solve the problem.

Paul

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:13 am
From: Tim Wescott

pdrahn@coinet.com wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:33 am, Ned Simmons <n...@nedsim.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:05:04 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3.DO...@snet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Pete C." wrote:
>>>> Ned Simmons wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:34:07 -0500, Ned Simmons <n...@nedsim.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'm working on a fail safe brake along the lines of an elevator safety
>>>>>> brake -- it will prevent a heavy load from falling if the supporting
>>>>>> roller chain breaks. I need brake pads that can be attached to the
>>>>>> device that will bear on a large rectangular tube column when
>>>>>> activated, 4 pads near the corners of the column. I found some rough
>>>>>> dimensions online of performance auto disc brake pads that are about
>>>>>> 2" square, which seems appropriate. The four pads will be required to
>>>>>> support about 3000 pounds total.
>>>>>> Potential problems with automotive pads? Any suggestions other than
>>>>>> auto pads? McMaster has lining material, but I'd rather not design and
>>>>>> fabricate something that can be more easily purchased.
>>>>> A picture of the device. The purple plates are 15x22x3/4 and there's
>>>>> 5/8" clearance between the plates and the gray column. No clearance
>>>>> between the column and the yellow chain brackets.
>>>>> http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmons/news/VerticalCar100315a.jpg
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ned Simmons
>>>> The ratchet plate I mentioned in my other post could readily fit in that
>>>> 5/8" clearance you have. Indeed, you could do one on either side, double
>>>> ratcheted, providing four ratchet surfaces and you could make the pawl
>>>> plates engage several teeth, so you should be able to handle any
>>>> possible load.
>>> Looking further at your drawing, I'd take a close look at the two column
>>> auto lifts and see if one of those might provide a good starting point
>>> to modify for your application and save some work. These lifts are
>>> remarkably inexpensive these days, ~$3k for a basic one.
>> Thanks, Pete. I knew I had seen those ratcheting safeties, but
>> couldn't remember where. I started looking at patents for auto lift
>> safeties and see that some use a slotted bar, which hadn't occurred to
>> me and looks promising.
>>
>> For example:http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=HaEvAAAAEBAJ&dq=4331219
>>
>> Re the auto lift as a whole, the most restrictive factor in the design
>> of this device was the available space. It also travels at a much
>> higher speed than an auto lift and supports very asymmetrical overhung
>> loads in some orientatiions. It was supposed to be a quick and dirty
>> prototype, but is morphing into a permanent solution, if all the
>> safety issues can be addressed. I wish I could say more -- the
>> manufacturing operation is pretty wild and metal related.
>>
>> --
>> Ned Simmons
>
> Ned, can we explore this a little further. Will the safety be such
> that once activated, it will never be released? Or will the safety be
> required to operate on a regular basis? The answer will point you in
> the direction of the simplest device to solve the problem.

Knowing whether a failed safety will result in loss of life & limb or
just a bunch of product to be scrapped may help guide your thinking, as
well.

Any time I start thinking "life safety" I start getting suspicious of
hypothetical future maintenance folks, and the managers who approve
their time.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:48 am
From: "Pete C."

Ned Simmons wrote:
>
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:05:04 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Pete C." wrote:
> >>
> >> Ned Simmons wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:34:07 -0500, Ned Simmons <news@nedsim.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >I'm working on a fail safe brake along the lines of an elevator safety
> >> > >brake -- it will prevent a heavy load from falling if the supporting
> >> > >roller chain breaks. I need brake pads that can be attached to the
> >> > >device that will bear on a large rectangular tube column when
> >> > >activated, 4 pads near the corners of the column. I found some rough
> >> > >dimensions online of performance auto disc brake pads that are about
> >> > >2" square, which seems appropriate. The four pads will be required to
> >> > >support about 3000 pounds total.
> >> > >
> >> > >Potential problems with automotive pads? Any suggestions other than
> >> > >auto pads? McMaster has lining material, but I'd rather not design and
> >> > >fabricate something that can be more easily purchased.
> >> >
> >> > A picture of the device. The purple plates are 15x22x3/4 and there's
> >> > 5/8" clearance between the plates and the gray column. No clearance
> >> > between the column and the yellow chain brackets.
> >> > http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmons/news/VerticalCar100315a.jpg
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Ned Simmons
> >>
> >> The ratchet plate I mentioned in my other post could readily fit in that
> >> 5/8" clearance you have. Indeed, you could do one on either side, double
> >> ratcheted, providing four ratchet surfaces and you could make the pawl
> >> plates engage several teeth, so you should be able to handle any
> >> possible load.
> >
> >Looking further at your drawing, I'd take a close look at the two column
> >auto lifts and see if one of those might provide a good starting point
> >to modify for your application and save some work. These lifts are
> >remarkably inexpensive these days, ~$3k for a basic one.
>
> Thanks, Pete. I knew I had seen those ratcheting safeties, but
> couldn't remember where. I started looking at patents for auto lift
> safeties and see that some use a slotted bar, which hadn't occurred to
> me and looks promising.
>
> For example:
> http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=HaEvAAAAEBAJ&dq=4331219
>
> Re the auto lift as a whole, the most restrictive factor in the design
> of this device was the available space. It also travels at a much
> higher speed than an auto lift and supports very asymmetrical overhung
> loads in some orientatiions. It was supposed to be a quick and dirty
> prototype, but is morphing into a permanent solution, if all the
> safety issues can be addressed. I wish I could say more -- the
> manufacturing operation is pretty wild and metal related.

One column of a two column auto lift will travel at twice the speed,
since you will have half the cylinder displacement to fill. A 10,000#
rated two column lift carries 5,000# hanging several feet off the
column, and with safety margins for overhead lifting (5:1?). Using half
an auto lift also provides a complete set of spare parts.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:51 am
From: Ned Simmons

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:13:18 -0700, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.now>
wrote:

>
>Knowing whether a failed safety will result in loss of life & limb or
>just a bunch of product to be scrapped may help guide your thinking, as
>well.
>
>Any time I start thinking "life safety" I start getting suspicious of
>hypothetical future maintenance folks, and the managers who approve
>their time.

It shouldn't be a life safety issue in a direct sense. But if the lift
were to fail under certain circumstances lots of excitement would
ensue and there may be a temptation for folks to take heroic and
foolish actions. The overall process is dangerous enough that safety
is taken very seriously by my customer -- hopefully that will continue
into the future.

--
Ned Simmons

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:55 am
From: Ned Simmons

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:10:56 -0700 (PDT), "pdrahn@coinet.com"
<co_farmer@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Ned, can we explore this a little further. Will the safety be such
>that once activated, it will never be released? Or will the safety be
>required to operate on a regular basis? The answer will point you in
>the direction of the simplest device to solve the problem.
>

Hopefully the safety will never operate except when testing it. In use
the lifting device reciprocates up and down at relatively high speed
and short intervals. I suppose it would be nice if the safety could be
manually engaged when the machine is idle, or while being worked on,
but not at the expense of reliability. The columns are drilled for
pins that serve that function now.

--
Ned Simmons

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 12:09 pm
From: "Paul Hovnanian P.E."

Ned Simmons wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:51:41 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Ned Simmons wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm working on a fail safe brake along the lines of an elevator safety
>>> brake -- it will prevent a heavy load from falling if the supporting
>>> roller chain breaks. I need brake pads that can be attached to the
>>> device that will bear on a large rectangular tube column when
>>> activated, 4 pads near the corners of the column. I found some rough
>>> dimensions online of performance auto disc brake pads that are about
>>> 2" square, which seems appropriate. The four pads will be required to
>>> support about 3000 pounds total.
>>>
>>> Potential problems with automotive pads? Any suggestions other than
>>> auto pads? McMaster has lining material, but I'd rather not design and
>>> fabricate something that can be more easily purchased.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ned Simmons
>>
>>Most every vertical column safety I've seen has been a ratchet track
>>type of configuration that will positively lock the load from dropping
>>more than the inch or so ratchet spacing in the event of the lift
>>system failing. That would seem to be the best way to go unless your
>>application is significantly outside the norms.
>
> I would prefer that, and it would work if there was room for the
> track, but unfortunately I haven't found a practical way to mount one
> large enough to support the load. If I can generate some
> understandable images of the device I'll post them.
>

Could this safety engage while the load is moving? Or just lock it once it
has stopped? That's going to make a big difference in the design,
particularly if it is moving at a pretty good rate.

--
Paul Hovnanian paul@hovnanian.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 12:40 pm
From: Ned Simmons

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:09:45 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

>>>Ned Simmons wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm working on a fail safe brake along the lines of an elevator safety
>>>> brake -- it will prevent a heavy load from falling if the supporting
>>>> roller chain breaks.
>
>Could this safety engage while the load is moving? Or just lock it once it
>has stopped? That's going to make a big difference in the design,
>particularly if it is moving at a pretty good rate.

It will only engage if some part of the lifting gear fails (a chain
was the example I gave in the original post), or when performing
periodic testing.

--
Ned Simmons

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 12:49 pm
From: "pdrahn@coinet.com"

On Mar 15, 12:09 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <p...@hovnanian.com> wrote:
> Ned Simmons wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:51:41 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3.DO...@snet.net>
> > wrote:
>
> >>Ned Simmons wrote:
>
> >>> I'm working on a fail safe brake along the lines of an elevator safety
> >>> brake -- it will prevent a heavy load from falling if the supporting
> >>> roller chain breaks. I need brake pads that can be attached to the
> >>> device that will bear on a large rectangular tube column when
> >>> activated, 4 pads near the corners of the column. I found some rough
> >>> dimensions online of performance auto disc brake pads that are about
> >>> 2" square, which seems appropriate. The four pads will be required to
> >>> support about 3000 pounds total.
>
> >>> Potential problems with automotive pads? Any suggestions other than
> >>> auto pads? McMaster has lining material, but I'd rather not design and
> >>> fabricate something that can be more easily purchased.
>
> >>> --
> >>> Ned Simmons
>
> >>Most every vertical column safety I've seen has been a ratchet track
> >>type of configuration that will positively lock the load from dropping
> >>more than the inch or so ratchet spacing in the event of the lift
> >>system failing. That would seem to be the best way to go unless your
> >>application is significantly outside the norms.
>
> > I would prefer that, and it would work if there was room for the
> > track, but unfortunately I haven't found a practical way to mount one
> > large enough to support the load. If I can generate some
> > understandable images of the device I'll post them.
>
> Could this safety engage while the load is moving? Or just lock it once it
> has stopped? That's going to make a big difference in the design,
> particularly if it is moving at a pretty good rate.
>
> --
> Paul Hovnanian p...@hovnanian.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Have gnu, will travel.

I think we are getting closer to design parameters that will work for
you.

Will the safety device need to operate immediately in case of power
failure, or hydraulic or air pressure? Or just if the chain fails?

If all three, then somewhere there needs to be enough energy stored,
compressed springs, weights, etc. to deploy the safety. If just the
chain failure, then we need to discover how the device will recognize
a chain failure and not a power fail or just turning the machine off
at the end of a shift.

Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What sort of surface plate is this?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c2e43cb2e443c86d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:10 am
From: "anorton"

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b9e4d89$0$31271$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> "stu" <no where just yet> wrote in message
> news:4b9cc196$0$16520$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4b9c25ba$0$5011$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "stu" <no where just yet> wrote in message
>>> news:4b9c2225$0$1783$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>>
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b9bf249$0$31281$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message news:...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <pentagrid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:chpnp5tmli6f21tp685hts7mguookv6r64@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:55:03 +1100, "stu" <no where just yet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><pentagrid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:cu3np5la85p48d0vchp58tos9do4fun5me@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:55:17 +1100, "stu" <no where just yet>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I've just posted a picture in http://www.metalworking.com/Dropbox
>>>>>>>>>>called
>>>>>>>>>>"stusplate"(is it the done thing to put a direct link here?)
>>>>>>>>>>As you can see from the reflection of newpaper, the surface has a
>>>>>>>>>>very
>>>>>>>>>>fine
>>>>>>>>>>finish like no surface plate I have ever seen. It comes in a felt
>>>>>>>>>>lined
>>>>>>>>>>lockable box. Does anyone have any idea what this sort of plate
>>>>>>>>>>is?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could be an optical flat. Your jpg doesn't show the size.
>>>>>>>>> Inspection grade optical flats are typically 5 or 6" dia and
>>>>>>>>> polished flat to within a fraction of the wavelength of green
>>>>>>>>> light.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>So that would be pretty flat then lol
>>>>>>>>I have two, one is 170mm(7inches) x 35mm(1.5inches) thick. The other
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>220mm(9inches) x 35mm(1.5inches)they are labeled "precison plate"
>>>>>>>>I thought about optical flats but I thought they were made from
>>>>>>>>glass?(although I'm not even sure I've ever seen an optical flat)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most optical flats are glass or quartz. I have a 6"dia x 1/2"
>>>>>>> glass flat. Although your flats are opaque, bearing in mind the
>>>>>>> polish, the thickness and the careful packaging, I still think
>>>>>>> they are likely to be flat to optical precision standard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stu has a couple of toolmaker's flats. They're made with a surface
>>>>>> that allows a gage block to be wrung to the surface, so that clamps
>>>>>> aren't needed. It's frequently used in gage labs for qualifying and
>>>>>> certifying instruments. Standard sizes are 2" and 4", so Stu's are
>>>>>> something pretty special. I've seen them that big, though, in
>>>>>> Mitutoyo's qualification lab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you keep that surface scratch-free, there's no better way to set
>>>>>> up a stack of gage blocks to extreme, certifiable, transferable
>>>>>> accuracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, I should mention that their original purpose, which is now about
>>>>> 30 or 40 years out of date, was to qualify custom gages that were used
>>>>> in production manufacturing -- go/no-go snap gages and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks Ed (and others)
>>>> There are some light scratches in the small one, just behind the person
>>>> it the photo. I didn't do a very good job cleaning the block as I
>>>> wasn't sure what to use. I'm yet to clean the large one, I'll try to
>>>> get onto it this evening, but what to use? I'm guessing "kero and a
>>>> rag" aren't the done thing.
>>>
>>> Kero and a rag isn't bad at all. Don't use anything the least bit
>>> abrasive or corrosive to steel. No Windex. Then lightly oil it with a
>>> rag and put it away. Wipe the oil off before using. If you're going to
>>> try wringing gage blocks against them, clean with a solvent on the
>>> working surface, really well, first. Paint thinner should do it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe you are right about the "production manufacturing ", they
>>>> have a name plate from a wire company where I am guessing they were
>>>> used, but they have no other name on them.
>>>>
>>>> I'm try and get some more info on here tonight.
>>>> thanks again
>>>>
>>>> Stu
>>>
>>> You're welcome, Stu. They're interesting tools and they don't take up
>>> much room. With scratches, you probably won't get much for them, so
>>> you'd might as well keep them.
>>>
>>> Do you have a set of gage blocks?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress
>> I've uploaded a couple of pictures of the large plate after a quick clean
>> wipe of kero.
>> http://www.metalworking.com/Dropbox/stusplatelarge.jpg
>> http://www.metalworking.com/Dropbox/stusplatelargeb.jpg
>> as you can see the isnt as good as the small one. I would think that it
>> is still plenty good enough for me. It will be nice to have something
>> "flat" in the shed, even if it is a little over the top.
>>
>> I dont have gauge blocks yet although I am keeping an eye out for some, I
>> cant really think of an excuse to buy a new set.
>
> You may or may not have a need for them, depending upon the kind of work
> you do. I don't think most hobbyists need a full set of gage blocks, but I
> do find use for a few very good ones, to check my mikes, calipers, and
> height gage.
>
> But those plates you have are not something any of us would really need,
> either. They're nice to have. You can get some use out of them, but it's
> unlikely you'll be qualifying gages or making production gages. <g>
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

A flat like this can also be used to set the zero of lapping fixtures like
these: http://southbaytech.com/shop/mlp1.shtml . It can also be used for
things like setting the zero of a flatness gauge used to qualify lapping
plates and surface plates:
http://www.southbaytech.com/appnotes/107%2093031%20Flattness%20Monitoring%20Kit.PDF
although the spherical contacts might scratch a metal flat.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:29 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"anorton" <anorton@removethis.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:uKudnb1auKav5QPWnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4b9e4d89$0$31271$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "stu" <no where just yet> wrote in message
>> news:4b9cc196$0$16520$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4b9c25ba$0$5011$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>
>>>> "stu" <no where just yet> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b9c2225$0$1783$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4b9bf249$0$31281$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message news:...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <pentagrid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:chpnp5tmli6f21tp685hts7mguookv6r64@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:55:03 +1100, "stu" <no where just yet>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><pentagrid@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:cu3np5la85p48d0vchp58tos9do4fun5me@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:55:17 +1100, "stu" <no where just yet>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I've just posted a picture in http://www.metalworking.com/Dropbox
>>>>>>>>>>>called
>>>>>>>>>>>"stusplate"(is it the done thing to put a direct link here?)
>>>>>>>>>>>As you can see from the reflection of newpaper, the surface has a
>>>>>>>>>>>very
>>>>>>>>>>>fine
>>>>>>>>>>>finish like no surface plate I have ever seen. It comes in a felt
>>>>>>>>>>>lined
>>>>>>>>>>>lockable box. Does anyone have any idea what this sort of plate
>>>>>>>>>>>is?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Could be an optical flat. Your jpg doesn't show the size.
>>>>>>>>>> Inspection grade optical flats are typically 5 or 6" dia and
>>>>>>>>>> polished flat to within a fraction of the wavelength of green
>>>>>>>>>> light.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>>So that would be pretty flat then lol
>>>>>>>>>I have two, one is 170mm(7inches) x 35mm(1.5inches) thick. The
>>>>>>>>>other is
>>>>>>>>>220mm(9inches) x 35mm(1.5inches)they are labeled "precison plate"
>>>>>>>>>I thought about optical flats but I thought they were made from
>>>>>>>>>glass?(although I'm not even sure I've ever seen an optical flat)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most optical flats are glass or quartz. I have a 6"dia x 1/2"
>>>>>>>> glass flat. Although your flats are opaque, bearing in mind the
>>>>>>>> polish, the thickness and the careful packaging, I still think
>>>>>>>> they are likely to be flat to optical precision standard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stu has a couple of toolmaker's flats. They're made with a surface
>>>>>>> that allows a gage block to be wrung to the surface, so that clamps
>>>>>>> aren't needed. It's frequently used in gage labs for qualifying and
>>>>>>> certifying instruments. Standard sizes are 2" and 4", so Stu's are
>>>>>>> something pretty special. I've seen them that big, though, in
>>>>>>> Mitutoyo's qualification lab.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you keep that surface scratch-free, there's no better way to set
>>>>>>> up a stack of gage blocks to extreme, certifiable, transferable
>>>>>>> accuracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, I should mention that their original purpose, which is now about
>>>>>> 30 or 40 years out of date, was to qualify custom gages that were
>>>>>> used in production manufacturing -- go/no-go snap gages and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Ed (and others)
>>>>> There are some light scratches in the small one, just behind the
>>>>> person it the photo. I didn't do a very good job cleaning the block as
>>>>> I wasn't sure what to use. I'm yet to clean the large one, I'll try to
>>>>> get onto it this evening, but what to use? I'm guessing "kero and a
>>>>> rag" aren't the done thing.
>>>>
>>>> Kero and a rag isn't bad at all. Don't use anything the least bit
>>>> abrasive or corrosive to steel. No Windex. Then lightly oil it with a
>>>> rag and put it away. Wipe the oil off before using. If you're going to
>>>> try wringing gage blocks against them, clean with a solvent on the
>>>> working surface, really well, first. Paint thinner should do it.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe you are right about the "production manufacturing ", they
>>>>> have a name plate from a wire company where I am guessing they were
>>>>> used, but they have no other name on them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm try and get some more info on here tonight.
>>>>> thanks again
>>>>>
>>>>> Stu
>>>>
>>>> You're welcome, Stu. They're interesting tools and they don't take up
>>>> much room. With scratches, you probably won't get much for them, so
>>>> you'd might as well keep them.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a set of gage blocks?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ed Huntress
>>> I've uploaded a couple of pictures of the large plate after a quick
>>> clean wipe of kero.
>>> http://www.metalworking.com/Dropbox/stusplatelarge.jpg
>>> http://www.metalworking.com/Dropbox/stusplatelargeb.jpg
>>> as you can see the isnt as good as the small one. I would think that it
>>> is still plenty good enough for me. It will be nice to have something
>>> "flat" in the shed, even if it is a little over the top.
>>>
>>> I dont have gauge blocks yet although I am keeping an eye out for some,
>>> I cant really think of an excuse to buy a new set.
>>
>> You may or may not have a need for them, depending upon the kind of work
>> you do. I don't think most hobbyists need a full set of gage blocks, but
>> I do find use for a few very good ones, to check my mikes, calipers, and
>> height gage.
>>
>> But those plates you have are not something any of us would really need,
>> either. They're nice to have. You can get some use out of them, but it's
>> unlikely you'll be qualifying gages or making production gages. <g>
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>
> A flat like this can also be used to set the zero of lapping fixtures like
> these: http://southbaytech.com/shop/mlp1.shtml . It can also be used for
> things like setting the zero of a flatness gauge used to qualify lapping
> plates and surface plates:
> http://www.southbaytech.com/appnotes/107%2093031%20Flattness%20Monitoring%20Kit.PDF
> although the spherical contacts might scratch a metal flat.

Interesting stuff. Precision lapping is quite an art. We used to have a
member here who had quite a bit of experience with it, years ago.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Train wreck . . .
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/dae93e33bd54a025?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 12:22 pm
From: danmitch

pdrahn@coinet.com wrote:
> On Mar 14, 2:26 pm, Ignoramus27323 <ignoramus27...@NOSPAM.
> 27323.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>On electrified railroads, the energy from braking can be returned to
>>power lines to help run other trains.
>>
>>i
>
>
> In the early part of the 20th century the Great Northern, I think it
> was, ran two tracks from East of Stevens Pass to Everett Washington.
> They used electric locomotives on that part of the track. A West-bound
> train would wait at the tunnel until an East-bound train was ready to
> begin ascending the mountain pass. Then the train going down the
> mountain would generate power to help move the train going up the
> mountain.
>
> I suspect the Diesel-electric locomotive became powerful enough and
> cheap enough to put the electrics out of business.
>
> Paul

The Great Norther Railway's electrification in Washington state extended
only 73 miles from Wenatchee (east slope) to Skykomish (west slope) of
Steven's Pass in the Cascade Mountains. The electrification was never
extended to the coast.

The reason or the elctrifcation was to allow trains to pass through
"Cascade Tunnel", some two miles long, at the summit of the Cascades.
While it proved possible to run steam locomotives through this tunnel,
it was a dangerous business, and several crews and many passengers were
nearly asphyxiated. After these problems, and changing regulations, the
railroad decided to electrify the entire line over Steven's Pass.

The electrification started as a 3-phase synchronous system in 1909, but
this complicated system was converted to single phase a while before a
newer 8-mile tunnel opened in 1928.

This system used AC overhead, for easiest power distribution; and DC
traction motors in the locomotives. This system provided the (then) best
control and operating characteristics. The high voltage AC was first
dropped in voltage by a transformer in the loco, then the AC-DC
conversion was achieved by large rotary-converters (motor-generators) in
each locomotive. It was a heavy and complex system, but proven
technology, and used by several other railroads as well as the G.N.

A variety of lovomotives were used over the years, the largest being the
two huge W-1 class B-D+D-B units, the largest electric locos to operate
in North America.

This system was used extensively until 1956, when the electric wires
were removed. All Diesel operation through the tunnel was made possible
by installing a massive ventilation system that continues in use, with
improvements, today.

Oddly, the current railroad, BNSF, continues to study the possibility of
re-electrifying the line. The Dieselized Cascade Tunnel has now proven a
serious bottleneck with much increased rail traffic. It takes close to a
half-hour to clear the tunnel of Diesel fumes after each eastbound
(upgrade) train passes through. This must be done before another train
can enter the tunnel. Were the tunnel re-electrified, following trains
could move through much sooner, increasing traffic.

Dan Mitchell
============

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rush to flee US
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/589453ba81b739ca?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 12:56 pm
From: RBnDFW

Lookout wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:56:14 -0800 (PST), Shall not be infringed
> <hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 13, 12:01 pm, Lookout <mrLook...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:58:50 -0600, "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Why shouldn't he, what they are trying to do with the health care bill is
>>>> unconstitutional. Can't get enough votes, skip votes and abuse budget
>>>> reconciliation for the health care bill, still can't get enough votes so
>>>> skip voting altogether with the Slaughter solution.
>>> Same thing republicans did 13 times. Did you bitch then?
>> The Dems sure bitched. They went so far as to call it a crime.
>
> That's not the point. The republicans shouldn't be bitching because
> THEY did it first.
>

Reconciliation was expressly for reconciling budget differences.
Did they republicans distort it's use for non-budgetary legislation?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:30 pm
From: Hawke

> "Planned Parenthood condemns the adoption of the Stupak/Pitts amendment in
> HR 3962 this evening. This amendment is an unacceptable addition to the
> health care reform bill..."
>
> Planned Parenthood determines what is acceptable in their healthcare bill.
>
> http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/03/planned-parenthood-nelson-abortion-compromise-also-unacceptable/
> http://yubanet.com/usa/Planned-Parenthood-Applauds-Defeat-of-Nelson-Hatch-Amendment.php
> http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/Planned_Parenthood_decries_Senate_abortion_language_.html?showall
> http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/healthreform/683.htm
> http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/planned-parenthood-applauds-defeat-nelson-hatch-amendment-31117.htm
>
>
> For proof that Obama's gang is bypassing the constitution, go to
> http://www.alcj.org , click on radio and yuo can hear the actual comments of
> Obama and his hijack the USA team.
>
> RogerN
>
>

You're a throw the baby out with the bathwater kind of guy. Planned
parenthood is a good thing. Does it provide abortion services to women
as one of its services, yeah. So what? If you were a woman you would
want access to that kind of a service whether or not you personally
needed it or not. It goes with the territory. Women have the babies and
they decide whether to have one or not. Most women do not have
abortions. Less of them are done every year. Guys like Stupak are
holding the health care reforms hostage just because he's anti abortion.
Everybody is anti abortion. It's just a matter of what you will allow
and what you won't. Some people will have none of it and some will allow
it on demand. There is a middle ground and you don't let the one issue
of abortion hold up fixing a health care problem that is going to
bankrupt the country. Pass the health care reforms and then worry about
abortions. It's a separate issue.

Hawke

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Metal Burrs...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/65a5a7919b9f1464?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:29 pm
From: "Joe AutoDrill"

Opinion gathering...

We were discussing why there is a larger burr on the back side of a manually
drilled hole in materials like steel or stainless VS aluminum or brass.

My theory is that the material is harder and requires more thrust and thus
"breaks" or "shears" earlier and leaves a heavier burr because of it.

Agreements, differing opinions, misc. ramblings?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Atomic lamps?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/6b96532de4146a05?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:32 pm
From: "Chet"

On YouTube I did a serach for NYC railroad films.
One of those films (1950's New York Central Railroad - The Big Train)
described the ongoing research done by the New York Central back in the
50's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCeCPrpAK60
At 8:16 into the film they mention a new type railroad lamp (they show a
switch lamp) that could be self-powered by atomic energy and would run for 7
years...
What 'atomic' referred to wasn't explained, but I'm wondering if anyone is
familiar with the process???

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Monday, March 15, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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