Re: Django - Worldwide Developer Rates - Hourly Income - location and project duration specific

I already like the discussion and I think over time we really will be able to grab some useful data.
@ Kurtis
"As for the $2800/month being a great starting wage for a web developer -- I sure hope they don't have kids :)"

Well Kurtis,
now we are at the region specific details.

2800$/month in the US is as you say, if you have kids not the best starting point.
2800$/month in Europe/Austria, which is about 2100€/mo is not that bad even with kids, because AFTER tax means, that
you do not have to pay further bills on things such as health insurance coverage,... because this is already included in the taxes by duty.
Not so in the USA - as far as i know, the social insurance in the US is keeping a big part of the decision what to pay and how much in private hands, with the known
advantages and disadvantages of that kind of system.

So 2800$/month (after tax) in Europe/Austria is a good start for a web-engineer.
while 2800$/month (after tax) in the US is not a great deal, because people in the US have to pay health insurance, school fees etc... extra,
those things are already included in taxes in most European countries and compared to the US kind of "free".

We give our best to respect all those little region specific differences in the end summary of the "hourly rates - report".
http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Kind regards,
Raphael


On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 15:30 -0400, Kurtis Mullins wrote:

Another variable in the equation is that independent developers do not have a guaranteed job every day. You have to compensate for that difference. So, for example, if I were to take on a project that might last two weeks -- I need to make up that other two weeks unless I have another job waiting on me. On the other hand, if someone offers me a 6-month contract -- then I'm happy taking a bit less because I know the money will be coming in for the duration. Regardless, I know what I need to make each month to survive and try to charge accordingly. I imagine others might follow the same approach.

As for the $2800/month being a great starting wage for a web developer -- I sure hope they don't have kids :)

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Daniel Sokolowski <daniel.sokolowski@klinsight.com> wrote:

>>A plumber is mostly manual labour which will take a toll on the body over the years.

>>I've seen quite a few people making these comparisons to manual labour jobs and, in my opinion, they are completely irrelevant.

>>A plumber also has travel costs, fuel, cost in lost time travelling, covering free quotations etc.

 

They are absolutely relevant, an expert spends time and money to improve his or her skills – continually -- be it a plumber or a programmer it's no difference if it’s manual or mental labour. I don’t know if you are attempting to prove a point against good rates for django developers or simply stating your opinion; I will assume the latter.

 

 

From: Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]

Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 11:26 AM

To: django-users@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Django - Worldwide Developer Rates - Hourly Income - location and project duration specific

 

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Daniel Sokolowski <elgoog@danols.com> wrote:

Did the math here and that works out to about $2700/month. I would say that would be the bare minimum considering my NOT lavish life style - family, house, car etc.

 

It completely depends on the cost of living in your country/area/circumstances.

 

Perhaps sweet spot was the wrong choice of words, as I meant for it to mean "typical minimum" take home salary every month.

 

Furthermore these 'charlatans' driving the price up is a GREAT thing because talent and skill is not cheap  - these people know what they are worth and charge accordingly - sure some are better sales people then programmers.

 

Time and time again I am reminded that anyone can call themselves a web designer - but only a few can do what we can - that I am a web engineer.

Django strengths lies in customization and ability to deliver exactly when the client wants while saving us some a small amount of time on the basics, it's easy to put up a pretty $15 dollar template based static site - damn I had clients thinking they were good web designer and just wanted hosting - but not everyone can deliver exactly what is required, that does not use a purchased rigid piece of code out there, or code something innovative from scratch to solve a need.

I'll repeat not everyone can do what we can do so charge accordingly, be proud, confident and call your self a web engineer. If you talk big, appear big, deliver big you will attract those big projects - of course if people Google you or your business you better be on first page to justify that.

The company I work for as an employee charges $65/hour - after all expenses, down time, employee wages, not billable tasks the profit margins are not that great I recon - I would guess target being business making $20 an hour I doubt that happens often though.

Final food for thought - a plumber service here starts at $60-100 / hour.

 

A plumber is mostly manual labor which will take a toll on the body over the years.

 

I've seen quite a few people making these comparisons to manual labor jobs and, in my opinion, they are completely irrelevant.

 

A plumber also has travel costs, fuel, cost in lost time travelling, covering free quotations etc.

 

  --   Daniel Sokolowski  Web Engineer  Danols Web Engineering  http://webdesign.danols.com/  Office: 613-817-6833  Fax: 613-817-4553  Toll Free: 1-855-5DANOLS   Kingston, ON K7L 1H3, Canada  

On 03/05/2012 06:31, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:

Hi,

 

Just my two cents worth on this (albeit slightly off topic) - it's not all about technical ability or the industry you are working in.

 

Most clients are willing to pay that extra premium for contractors who are able to manage expectations and go above and beyond.

 

I've seen many great developers with amazing skills go unnoticed, primarily because they don't know how to handle clients, clear and concise communication plays a huge part in pricing.

 

The other problem is that the market is flooded with charlatans, who are driving the prices up and make it even more diluted for the rest of us.

 

You also have to remember that many people don't factor in project management and sales/phone calls into the hourly rate - they simply absorb the costs - which further drives it down.

 

Cut a long story short though, I personally think that around £1700/month after tax is the 'sweet spot' for any developer (assuming you're not in the city). Anything beyond that is a bonus :)

 

Cal

 

 

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Raphael <development@develissimo.com> wrote:

Hello Kurtis,

thank you for letting is know about C. Lemmings post, we are going to use all the information we are able to grab.
Got project data via email - but anyway till now its far not enough.

http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Kind regards,
Raphael

On Tue, 2012-05-01 at 10:44 -0400, Kurtis Mullins wrote:

Raphael,


According to another topic -- some developers are being paid roughly $20/hour. It's under a post by Cal Lemmings where he is trying to hire some entry level developer(s). You might be able to use that information as well. I just thought I'd let you know.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Raphael <development@develissimo.com> wrote:

Dear djangos,

if you want to hand-in your data anonymously - just send us an email to django[at]develissimo.com
we really need more data to achieve some meaningful results.

http://develissimo.com/forum/topic/107887/

Cheers,
Raphael

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  --   Daniel Sokolowski  Web Engineer  Danols Web Engineering  http://webdesign.danols.com/  Office: 613-817-6833  Fax: 613-817-4553  Toll Free: 1-855-5DANOLS   Kingston, ON K7L 1H3, Canada      Notice of Confidentiality:  The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review re-transmission dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error please contact the sender immediately by return electronic transmission and then immediately delete this transmission including all attachments without copying distributing or disclosing same.  

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Daniel Sokolowski
Web Engineer
Danols Web Engineering
http://webdesign.danols.com/

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