twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 24 new messages in 13 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
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Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Time to get tougher
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/857dcab3153330a8?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 8:57 am
From: "Steve B"

"tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.com> wrote

>
> Repeating the same chant over and over does not make the argument any
> stronger..
> It only makes the chanter look foolish and desperate..

It's something you learn if you've been in college too long. Just watch the
TV interviews and see how many times the politicos use it. Either that, or
change the subject. Or start talking about the mating habits of Amazon
poison dart frogs. Anything.

Steve

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:06 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Lib Loo wrote:
>
> "Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
> news:hgohr8$t2i$1@aioe.org...
> >
> >>>> I see you didn't read the cites.....so much for your credibility.
> >>>
> >>> Some of us don't need to go to sites to find out about things. Some of
> >>> us are already informed. It may be that many people don't know much or
> >>> even anything about libertarians or the libertarian party. I'm not one
> >>> of them. I have a degree in political science. I know about the
> >>> libertarian party and its philosophy.
> >>
> >> Then you should ask for a full refund, because clearly you don't know
> >> what you think you do, and not only that can't be bothered to check to
> >> see if your "knowledge" is at all accurate.
> >>
> >> IMO, that, at best, makes you a hack with a degree.
> >
> >
> > Would you ask Norm Abrams, the master carpenter on The New Yankee
> > Workshop, if he knows what a carpenter's square is? Of course not. So why
> > would you ask someone with a political science degree if he went to a
> > website to learn about Libertarianism? Don't you get it? What do you think
> > a political scientist learns about? How about things like Communism,
> > Democracy, Socialism, Libertarianism, etc. Brother!, it's clear that some
> > of you folks have no idea what you have to learn to get a degree in
> > political science. How about government and political parties, for a
> > couple?
> >
> > Hawke
>
> Nitwit. Norm Abrams didn't learn carpentry or about carpenter squares in
> school. You should sue for your money to be returned.

He should sue his mother for not aborting him.

--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:09 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Lib Loo wrote:
>
> "Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
> news:hgrppk$rvm$1@aioe.org...
> > Lib Loo wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> "Gray Ghost" <grey_ghost471-newsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:Xns9CE892CA347E9Wereofftoseethewizrd@216.196.97.142...
> >>> Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in
> >>> news:hgm8aq$vsg$1@aioe.org:
> >>>
> >>>> I have a degree in political science.
> >>
> >>
> >> Translation: "I wasn't sure what I wanted to be if I ever grew up"
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> A degree in applied uselessness. Perfect.
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > You apparently don't know the value of a formal education. That is common
> > in people who are uneducated. Like you? We haven't heard what your degree
> > is in yet either, even as you criticize mine. How right wing of you. I
> > mean, how pussy.
>
> You need to learn how to respond to posts correctly otherwise you attribute
> somebody else's words to my name. They didn't teach you about newsreaders,
> it would appear.

No one expects the janitor to use a computer.

--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:35 am
From: "Lib Loo"

"David R.Birch" <dbirch@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hgvpii0jk2@news6.newsguy.com...
> Hawke wrote:
>> SaPeIsMa wrote:
>
>>
>> So are you asserting that anyone who watches Jay Leno has low
>> intelligence? What if you have watched it yourself? But if that is how
>> you judge intelligence you aren't so smart yourself. BTW, I don't like
>> Jay Leno. I don't watch his show, or didn't watch it. I never thought he
>> was funny. I have seen a few snippets of it while he was host of the
>> Tonite Show. The Jay Walking segments was something I saw a few times
>> over the years. All it showed was that the "man on the street" was
>> shockingly ignorant.
>>
>> Hawke
>
> I've seen Leno about as much, or little, as you have, but I wouldn't
> assess the "man on the street" bits as indicative of anything but editing.
> How many bits do they have to get to yield 5 "idiot on the street" bits?
> 5? 100? 500? They only show the idiots.
>
> David

Just the first 5 libs.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:42 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.259d33b344e20035bf4@news.bytemine.net...
> In article <hgv3hi$16i$2@news.eternal-september.org>,
> davesmithers@digitalpath.net says...
>>
>> Scout wrote:
>>
>> >>> Really for someone that has a degree in political science, you
>> >>> really need to ask for a refund.
>> >>>
>> >>> Free Hint: "a republican form of government"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> What kind of government is that, anyway? A monarchy? A dictatorship?
>> >> What? It isn't a democracy is it? No, couldn't be a democracy. It must
>> >> be Communist.
>> >>
>> >> Seriously, once again the mistake is made of not understanding what
>> >> democracy is and that a republic is a democracy.
>> >
>> > Actually, a republic doesn't have to be a democracy, and indeed for a
>> > long
>> > time the US was anything but a democracy.
>>
>> When was this? From the first day the United States was created it was a
>> democracy. I don't know what you are referring to. Maybe that only
>> property owners could vote or other non democratic institutions that
>> were in place early in U.S. history are what you are talking about.
>> Whatever, you're wrong. The U.S. has always been a democracy. You
>> probably have the mistaken idea that democracy means direct democracy or
>> direct rule by the people. It doesn't. Today the words republic and
>> democracy are virtually interchangeable. That's a dictionary definition,
>> by the way.
>>
>
> Repeating the same chant over and over does not make the argument any
> stronger..
> It only makes the chanter look foolish and desperate..

What do you mean by a "republic," and how is it different from a
representative democracy?

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Colander Repair
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/60e491b2472bd5f8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:01 am
From: Joseph Gwinn

In article <faa5j5d05n0cabqq7n5hbl8dj69tht4m8g@4ax.com>,
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:07:04 -0500, the infamous Joseph Gwinn
> <joegwinn@comcast.net> scrawled the following:
>
> >In article
> ><ef04615a-602b-4557-ada4-083260979d21@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Denis G." <guillemd@gis.net> wrote:
> >
> >> McMaster Carr has countersunk stainless steel solid rivets:
> >> http://www.mcmaster.com/#solid-rivets/=5228i4
> >> They might look less obvious..
> >
> >I did think of this, but there is a twist. The bowl material is too
> >thin to countersink, but there is a standard dodge from the airplane
> >industry - one countersinks the piece to which the sheet will be riveted
> >(the foot in the present example), and dimples the (bowl) sheet to
> >match. But it's going to require some tooling to make those dimples in
> >stainless steel sheet.
>
> Excellent! Now you have a solid reason for new tools, Joe. Getchersef
> a brand-spankin' new doming die/dapping punch set!
>
> http://fwd4.me/9LD Griz $80ish
>
> http://fwd4.me/9LJ HF $45ish ($36 local, GO FOR IT!)
>
> http://fwd4.me/9LL eBay dapping punches, $20ish
> eBay dapping block, $67ish
>
> http://fwd4.me/9LF Amazon $46; brass, may be too soft.

There's a thought - tools!

Dapping blocks and punches are not the same thing as a rivet head
forming punch. But I bet McMaster carries the correct tools.

Or, for one use, I could make the tools from soft steel.

> >This dimple-the-sheet method is the reason for 100 degree flathead
> >screw/rivet heads: In WW2, it was found that the aluminum sheet used
> >for airplane skins could be cold dimpled to 100 degrees included angle
> >without cracking, but 82 degrees was too severe. (Don't know about the
> >90 degree heads used in metric screws, but I bet that 90 degrees is also
> >too severe.)
>
> So did heat make a difference, or was it just not doable with that
> particular alum. alloy?

No, the issue was that it was too slow and too hard to heat the airplane
up, and a WW2 airplane had tens of thousands of rivets holding it
together.

Joe Gwinn

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:14 am
From: Joseph Gwinn

In article <7xFYm.84815$ZS6.52066@newsfe11.ams2>,
Ted Frater <ted.frater@virgin.net> wrote:

> Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> > A few days ago, a foot broke off of my wife's favorite colander. I was
> > going to replace the colander, but she has had for at least 30 years,
> > and likes its now uncommon wide and shallow shape. So, I must repair it.
> >
> > The colander is completely made of stainless steel, the bowl being about
> > 12" in diameter and 5" deep. Alloy unknown, but it is not magnetic.
> > Fabrication was a bit sloppy. Each foot is spot-welded to the bowl in
> > three places, at least in theory. The foot that came off instead had
> > one weld plus two good-intention dents, and the one weld eventually
> > fatigued and broke. The other two feet were each missing at least one
> > weld, but it was hard to tell without pulling the joint apart.
> >
> > I don't have a welder, and silver brazing was going to leave a very
> > large and ugly heat-affected zone, which could well rust. (Not knowing
> > the alloy, I have to assume that it is one of those that can rust if
> > raised to red heat.)
> >
> > So, I drilled foot and bowl to accept three stainless steel 2-56 machine
> > screws and nuts, with the screwheads inside the bowl. I also put one
> > screw apiece in the other two feet, replacing the most obvious missing
> > welds. The bits of screw shaft protruding from the nuts were then
> > peened over with a ball peen hammer to form a rough rivethead.
> >
> > So far so good - it will not fail in my lifetime. But it does look a
> > bit crude, and the peened thread ends are a bit sharp (as I didn't form
> > a real rivethead), and I think real rivets would have been better.
> > Copper is probably too weak, ordinary steel rusts, so the rivets should
> > be made of stainless steel.
> >
> > The question is what alloys are best for making SS rivets. This is two
> > questions, actually, as one may wish to cold rivet (as I did with the
> > 2-56 screws), or hot-rivet.
> >
> > Whatever alloy those SS 2-56 screws are made of certainly would work as
> > a rivet. These screws were intended for use on airplanes, as the o, the
> > collander bowl istoo thin to countersink, the feet are too small to use
> > proper sized rivets,
> > flat-head screws have 100-degree heads, so they were probably made to
> > some MIL-SPEC.
> >
> > Googling on "stainless steel rivet" yields that lots of rivets are made
> > of 304 and 316 alloys, so perhaps that's the best answer, at least for
> > cold riveting. But then there is hot riveting, where the rivet is
> > heated red hot before hammering into shape.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
>
> So the collander bowl is too thin to counter sink, the feet are too
> small for a larger rivet size, the leverage on the feet is too great,
> seems to me different approach is needed.
> other than remaking the feet in larger stainless sheet, how about a ring
> of 1/8thin stainless wire connecting the feet together.half way along
> their length?
> would replicate the circular collander bases other collanders have and
> spread the load when in use,
> ifv you havnt stainless wire then copper or brass or even galvanised
> plain would do.
> how you fix it to the legs depends on how the legs are formed.

But then that wire ring would catch on everything. The usual
alternative is to replace the separate legs with a sheet-metal ring
shaped like a truncated cone. But this is far too much work.

I suppose I could make my own rivets from hobbyshop SS wire, which I
recall is type 304.

> We need a photo of it to devise a proper engineering solution.

It's a flat-bottomed hemisphere with three bent-strap feet spotwelded to
the flat bottom. I didn't see any catalog offerings that look exactly
like it.

> Im sure NASA would have the expertise to solve this.

Yeah - use at least four welds, so even if one weld fails the foot won't
come off.

Or the conical ring spotwelded in at least four places to the bowl -
this is a very common design, and the ring isn't going to come off so
easily.

Joe Gwinn

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:15 am
From: Joseph Gwinn

In article <hgucv6$ve2$1@aioe.org>, "Buerste" <buerste@wowway.com>
wrote:

> "Joseph Gwinn" <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:joegwinn-B36E78.10575023122009@news.giganews.com...
>
> <snip>
> >> Send it to me and I will spotweld it.
> >
> > Thanks Tawm, but I have already drilled the welds out and bolted it, so
> > now I'm more or less committed to replacing the peened-over bolting with
> > rivets, which are also very common in cookware.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
>
> Well, you know I'd do ANYTHING for you Joe! GL!

Well, I appreciate that, but is a colander challenging enough?

Joe Gwinn

==============================================================================
TOPIC: For once, I wish I lived somewhere icy
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/07032a740505f66b?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:04 am
From: axolotl

On 12/23/2009 9:48 PM, Christopher Tidy wrote:

> Are you talking about the area around the Bayport, NY? I read that the
> town itself is pretty different from the Bayport of the books.

I am talking about Atlantic Highlands, NJ, the mythical "Bayport" in
several books.

If you are short of snow, we in Jersey (as in New) can spare you a
couple of feet.

Kevin Gallimore

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:39 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"axolotl" <mungedkevin@shorecomp.com> wrote in message
news:hh06vp$t8a$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 12/23/2009 9:48 PM, Christopher Tidy wrote:
>
>> Are you talking about the area around the Bayport, NY? I read that the
>> town itself is pretty different from the Bayport of the books.
>
> I am talking about Atlantic Highlands, NJ, the mythical "Bayport" in
> several books.
>
> If you are short of snow, we in Jersey (as in New) can spare you a couple
> of feet.
>
> Kevin Gallimore

We got off easy here -- around 10 inches. What did you get?

My son finished his finals on Friday just as the snow was starting where he
goes to school (Lexington, VA), and they then had a 40-year record, with
around 15 - 18 inches. It took him two days to get home.

--
Ed Huntress

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TOPIC: Drilling Hole Near Wall Without "Drift"?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/22cf58a1bd8ea013?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:08 am
From: Doug White

I need to drill a clearance hole for a #8 bolt (0.165" dia) through ~ 1
1/4" of 6061-T6 aluminum. The first half is well inside the material,
but the last 3/4" needs to be close to one outside wall of the material.

I know that if I go too close to the wall, the material can give a
little, and the drill bit will drift towards the outside wall. What I
don't know is how close "close" is, and any techniques to minimize the
drift. A carbide drill bit will help, but I don't have time to go
shopping.

I was thinking 1/16" of an inch of material between the wall of the hole
& the outside wall of the block would support the drill reasonably well.
If I could go thinner, that would be good. I figure a 1/32" is probably
asking for trouble.

I can also clamp the offending wall in a vice when I drill, so the metal
will be supported. I don't want to risk drilling into the side of my
vice, so I will use a block of something less expensive. I figure steel
will provide even more support than additional aluminum, except that the
interface won't be perfect.

Another thought was to drill a smaller pilot hole that would be better
supported by the material, and then finish with the final clearance drill
which should follow the pilot hole. If this is prudent, how small a
pilot drill? Bigger would be stiffer & less prone to drift, but thinner
keeps it away from the hole (& is therefore less prone to drift).

For example, if I drill a 0.100" inch hole with a 1/16" wall thickness,
and I follow up with the #8 clearance drill, I will have ~ 1/32" wall
left, but the first hole should be well supported & straight, and then
guide the final drill pretty well.

This isn't a super critical application, but it brings up an interesting
machining/design problem that I'd love to hear the groups thoughts on.

Thanks!

Doug White

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:33 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Dec 24, 12:08 pm, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> I need to drill a clearance hole for a #8 bolt (0.165" dia) through ~ 1
> 1/4" of 6061-T6 aluminum. The first half is well inside the material,
> but the last 3/4" needs to be close to one outside wall of the material.
> ...
> Doug White

When I was making RF enclosures I found that 0.020" to 0.030" was a
reasonable minimum wall thickness for small tapped holes. 0.015" was
usually enough for small drilled holes, if a pro machinist drilled
them in a Bridgeport. I never could get that close in a drill press.

Try a parabolic drill bit close to or at the finished size. If it's
important I'd practice on scrap and measure the deflection.

jsw

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TOPIC: Slightly OT BUT METAL CONTENT
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/bd5fcc5aef33b946?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:13 am
From: "Bill Noble"

fishing leader is sold in stores, it's made from stainless steel wire - at
least what I've seen here -

"Steve B" <deserttraver@fishmail.net> wrote in message
news:upic07-enu1.ln1@news.infowest.com...
> I want to make some leaders of a special nature for fishing. What I want
> to make are pieces of wire, starting about 2" long, then the ends spiraled
> to make two eyes with a straight piece in the middle. I would put a
> sinker on the straight part before making the second eye.
>
> What type of high strength wire would I use? I could probably get some
> old guitar wires from a music shop and use the ones that don't have the
> secondary spiral winding. Or is there just a simple type of commonly
> available wire? Picture hanging wire is cheap, and it is kinda springy.
> Mainly, I want it not to bend too much or be soft and break from flexing.
>
> Steve
>

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:47 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Dec 24, 9:51 am, "Steve B" <deserttra...@fishmail.net> wrote:
> I want to make some leaders of a special nature for fishing. What I want to
> make are pieces of wire, starting about 2" long, then the ends spiraled to
> make two eyes with a straight piece in the middle. I would put a sinker on
> the straight part before making the second eye.
>
> What type of high strength wire would I use? I could probably get some old
> guitar wires from a music shop and use the ones that don't have the
> secondary spiral winding. Or is there just a simple type of commonly
> available wire? Picture hanging wire is cheap, and it is kinda springy.
> Mainly, I want it not to bend too much or be soft and break from flexing.
>
> Steve

If you were here, I'd say hit Bass Pro and see what they have. I've
seen stainless leader there. See what Cabela's has for fishing
tackle.

The local train store has a lot of music wire, some stainless. Ditto
for one of the local hardware stores.

If you HAVE to do mail order, Brownell's sells music wire for spring
making, get some of the smaller stuff.

Stan

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TOPIC: Biggest Liar of the Year
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8590429ec71758a5?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:22 am
From: "Lib Loo"

"Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
news:21l6j5puqi1hoekk4nru51g7qv40fe18lo@4ax.com...
> > --
> Cliff

http://tinyurl.com/yhkjang

==============================================================================
TOPIC: VFD Braking resistors - was My Powermatic drill press with VFD
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/3a260d8a5b515728?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:26 am
From: David Lesher

I do like the idea of Calrod or similar stove elements. If you can
find the correct resistance, great. They are sturdy and high wattage.

Immersing them in oil is better.

>> Caution - old - read that old transformer oil can give you cancer.
>> Power line transformers are time-bombs and most have over the last 50
>> years been replaced.

No one will give/sell you PCB oil, unless they want to die filling out
EPA reports. Any transformer oil you can buy today won't be that. I
believe mineral oil will work but not as well.

"Bill Noble" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> writes:

>beware of peanut oil if anyone nearby, or who might be nearby, or who might
>possibly be nearby or passing by is allergic to peanuts - it is a common
>allergy now, and those who have it can go into shock from the vapor from
>peanut oil -

I have a peanut allergy, and was told by an allegist that when they make
the oil, they remove the part that causes the reactions. I know various
fastfood places use it for chicken, and I've never had a reaction.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Year's Worst Celebrity Parents
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9d90c695d7865548?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:27 am
From: "Lib Loo"

"Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
news:prj6j5dmt1d0poqt4290qso0fnd31ebtec@4ax.com...

>
> Johnston also claimed that neither Palin nor her husband, Todd, did much
> cooking, and that the kids cooked, cleaned and did the laundry.

In Cliff's family his husband cooks and cleans after Cliff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: busted miter gears : possible alternative 'device' discovered...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e0d75d9beb627825?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:28 am
From: dave

while mulling over WHERE I stuck those TWO right angle gearboxes I kept
around here for decades (think I may've tossed 'em, fer shid's sake),
and searching ebay for angle gearboxes, miter gears, screw jacks, etc, I
stumbled over THESE bizarre things. I think they might be a BETTER and
CHEAPER solution to my "miter gear" situation:

just the image of the device
http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/Gearless.jpg

here's its entire descriptive page:
http://toolmonger.com/2008/05/30/gearless-right-angle-socket-adapter/

apparently, these things are available in 1/4 and 3/8ths drive sizes,
either of which I'm sure would suffice for my (hand-turned handwheel)
purposes...

so todays question is:

has ANYBODY here EVER seen these things used before, in person? or,
better yet, USED one himself?

if so, are they "prone to binding up"?

looks like they're probably vastly less sensitive to spacing issues than
miter gears would be, plus, one of these things is a little less than
HALF the cost of a single steel miter gear (when or IF I ever -could-
actually determine their correct pitch, module size, and all that 'ol
headachey krap...)

ok, let me know, lads :-)

many thanks,

a tool-oriented bubba with busted miter gears

bubba needs =roughly= 1.800 inch OD miter gears, set of two, if you got
any laying around. update: no news from enco re parts, four inquiries
sent so far...

> the thing might be metric module 3 (my best guess), or maybe 10
> diametral pitch (my only other guess). could be ANY damn thing, hard to
> say what. one gear is steel and the other is either cast iron or
> "garba-metal". it's even harder to measure. both gears have 17 teeth, so
> they ARE miter gears and not bevel gears.
>
> see the full glory of this BUSTED-up damn totally UNrepairable thing HERE:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/hardwares1#p/u/2/Xhj-QI6WqnQ
>
>
> and the saga continues briefly here, along with more technical info, and
> some guesswork:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/hardwares1#p/u/1/g0ggrQPFHs8
>
> both movies shot in EXTREME closeup mode; the gears are just UNDER the
> size of golf balls...
>
> if you have any of these ol' gears laying around, GET WITH ME YESTERDAY,
> ok, guys?
>
> my movies are "better than network TV"
>
> thanks :-)
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Desi Girls Sex Pictures Japan Girls Pictures
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c76b428038698055?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:35 am
From: kathar008 basha

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:36 am
From: kathar008 basha

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Palin Wins Inagural Award!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/0ea290197ad1982a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:36 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:NYadnSqeMf33CK7WnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> <dcaster@krl.org> wrote in message
>> news:468d1f63-f766-4c63-b031-1da25447bc1b@1g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
>> On Dec 22, 7:44 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Professionals involved in health care that I worked with agree that
>>> the system we have is a wreck, overall. The reform program bouncing
>>> around Congress right now lays some groundwork for improving it, but
>>> it doesn't get
>>> down to the things that will really reform the way medicine in
>>> practiced. That's going to be a big job that will make the current
>>> debate look like a picnic.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress
>>
>>> Is tort reform one of the things that will really reform the way
>>> medicine is practised?
>>
>> It's an issue, largely because of the distortions it causes in
>> practice. In some states, for example, most of the Ob/Gyns have moved
>> out because of the insurance costs. And it leads to a lot of
>> defensive practices that most professionals resent and find
>> frustrating.
>>
>> But -- and we've discussed this before -- the OMB projects that tort
>> reform would save something on the order of $30 billion/year. That's
>> out of a total health care cost of something like $2 trillion, IIRC.
>> So it's not much of a cost issue.
>
> In the places that tort reform has been implimented, like Texas, it hasn't
> done a thing to lower malpractice costs for OB/GYN's or anyone else.
> The insurers just moved on and emphasize other issues and keep rates high.
> The one factor that isn't spoken is that the companies that offer
> malpractice insurance are primarily investment funds. When the equity,
> futures or bond markets crash, they push rates up as much as possible.
> I wish I could point you to a document that supported this. It exists, I
> just don't remember where.
>
> Tort reform can't do much to influence poor investment choices and the
> results.
>
> --
> John R. Carroll

If you look at how OMB did their calculations, you see that most of their
estimate -- something over 80% of it -- is attributed to potential
reductions in defensive care, rather than directly to insurance costs. The
malpractice insurance costs are surprisingly low, overall: they estimated
$3.4 billion in 2007.

Either way, it isn't the insurance costs, directly, that are going to save a
lot of money. Neither will "reforming" tort law. As it is, the big problem
with malpractice suits is that juries are crazy to make big awards and to
have a very broad idea of what constitutes malpractice. The argument for
"reform" is kind of a paradox in that it's conservatives who are pushing
hardest for it, but what they're pushing for is government regulation of
juries.

Since the amount is almost trivial, I haven't gotten worked up about it. We
have $2 trillion of other costs to worry about.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gingery, and who else?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/49cfdb8c74ecd4f7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:42 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Dec 23, 7:47 pm, The Dougster <dgoncz.703.475.7...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have seen and read a bit of Gingery's books on bootstrapping a
> machine shop. I like 'em! Another book I've seen is how to build a
> lathe from ground flat tool steel. That's one high precision machine
> tool!
>
> Who else has written about this kind of thing?
>
> Are there any books surveying the devlopment of machine tools
> *historically* all the way back? (Including milestones like Maudsley's
> screw cutter, and the lapping method of correcting leadscrews)
>
> One of us here, if I remember, gave a link to his personal site of
> machine tool history. I asked that a category of "universal machines"
> be added. That was about five crashes ago. I've lost that link!
>
> Do any of you have that one?
>
> Douglas (Dana) Goncz
> Replikon Research
> Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

If you've got a decent large library with back issues of The Model
Engineer, they had lots of do-it-yourself machine tool building in the
pre-50's issues, folks were a lot poorer and more motivated back
then. One of the 1900's has a do-it-yourself hand-powered planer
series you could build with pattern-making directions and such.
You're supposed to take the patterns to your local foundry to get them
cast.

The local library has two of three volumes of historical machine tool
development, the set comprises lathes, milling machines and grinding
tools, they've got the ones for lathes and grinding. There are others
on the subject out there, but you'd probably have to visit a large
university library to read them, that's where I read them. Village
Publications has had several milling machine projects in their home
shop mags, one used an old 4 cylinder engine block for the arbor
foundation.

For freebies, don't forget Gutenberg and archive.org, both have
downloadable old machine-shop manuals.

Stan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:50 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

<stans4@prolynx.com> wrote in message
news:47bbe0ad-72bb-470a-a068-36f2503bed78@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 23, 7:47 pm, The Dougster <dgoncz.703.475.7...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have seen and read a bit of Gingery's books on bootstrapping a
> machine shop. I like 'em! Another book I've seen is how to build a
> lathe from ground flat tool steel. That's one high precision machine
> tool!
>
> Who else has written about this kind of thing?
>
> Are there any books surveying the devlopment of machine tools
> *historically* all the way back? (Including milestones like Maudsley's
> screw cutter, and the lapping method of correcting leadscrews)

If you're in Ohio, you could look into the 100th Anniversay Issue of
_American Machinist_ (1978)

http://web2.ohiohistory.org/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=1M56G9N414005.1969&profile=allsoc&uri=link=3100026~!121215~!3100001~!3100002&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ri=1&source=~!horizon&term=American+machinist.&index=#focus

It's close to 300 pages, IIRC, tracing the development of machine tools and
metalworking manufacturing in the US from the beginning. It's available in a
few other libraries. I recommend it, because I helped write it. d8-)

You can Google search for ["american machinist" 100th anniversay issue] and
you'll see some other sources for it.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT will honeywell chronotherm T882A work with no transformer?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/32666ff69e95fbdb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 24 2009 9:51 am
From: nomail@noplace.org

four-pole double-throw (¦för 'pol ¦d?b·?l 'thro)
(electricity) A 12-terminal switch or relay contact arrangement that
simultaneously connects two pairs of terminals to either of two other
pairs of terminals. Abbreviated 4PDT.

Had to look it up - Did you actually get it all to work as intended?
Sounds like lots of effort and money with an uncertain outcome - that is
if I were doing it.
m

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:03:34 -0600, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:

>A lot of that is from researching hooking a modern microprocessor
>controlled furnace to an older multizone furnace control. Lets just say
>that they don't play well together. It looks like I will have to build
>my own custom controller. A microprocessor is the nifty way to go,
>reliability and maintenance considerations dictate relay logic. I can
>get all the functions I need with about 8 ice cube relays with 4pdt
>contacts along with about 3 time delay relays. Oh joy.
>
>nomail@noplace.org wrote:
>> Thanks again Roy - fantastic information and source!
>> m
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:37:33 -0600, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds like you want a "Nonprogrammable, Mercury-Free Analog Thermostat"
>>> page 3820 at www.grainger.com
>>> The full deal Honeywell version with 'heat-Off-cool' is
>>> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1JUB1 for around $40
>>> Any home store will have a similar equivalent for less $$
>>> Grainger has the basic model for $22
>>> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4PU47
>>>
>>> The basic thermostat has 3 wires, adding the sub base with the switches
>>> for changing from heat to cool with change that to 5 or 7 wires
>>> depending on the options. You need to pull the existing one off the wall
>>> and check to see what wires need to be hooked up. The heat/cool
>>> changeover switch may be mounted somewhere else, you may not have the
>>> fan switch in your system.
>>>
>>> nomail@noplace.org wrote:
>>>> My search for the Honeywell T882A thermostat replacement was unsuccessful.
>>>> Saw no info as to it being discontinued or what the replacement may be.
>>>> What would be good places to search?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>> PS I really do NOT need the clock feature.
>>>> I DO need both heating and cooling. (I will eventually get it right)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:01:18 -0600, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The furnace controls usually want a 24 volt AC output at 20 to 40 VA,
>>>>> try page 249 at www.grainger.com
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular
>>>>> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4X744
>>>>> for $15.52
>>>>>
>>>>> I have several similar units for various circuits, NONE of them make a
>>>>> peep.
>>>>>
>>>>> These mount to a 7/8" hole (1/2" conduit size) in the side of any
>>>>> convenient electrical box. It should be connected to the furnace
>>>>> circuit, AFTER the furnace shut off switch. When the switch is OFF,
>>>>> EVERYTHING on the furnace is dead. And the furnace should be the only
>>>>> thing on that cirucit.
>>>>>
>>>>> nomail@noplace.org wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:36:56 -0600, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A quick check of some similar Honeywell Chronotherm units shows the
>>>>>>> programmable thermostat section running off AA batteries and the gas
>>>>>>> valve section running off of the 24 volt transformer. If yours is the
>>>>>>> same, you will NOT be able to run it without the transformer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just disconnect the transformer, see if the gas valve come on .......
>>>>>>> ever. You won't hurt anything.
>>>>>> I'm sure you guys a correct - the 24 v IS needed to run both heating and
>>>>>> cooling. It was only a hope of mine that I could do without the
>>>>>> transformer - since after more than 30 years of service it is 'due to
>>>>>> fail' any time. I was (am) somewhat confused about how or where I get the
>>>>>> correct replacement. I did a google and that did not help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might check to see if your "hasn't worked for years" is due to no
>>>>>>> battery.
>>>>>> It has no indication of a battery in the manual or on the clock itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nomail@noplace.org wrote:
>>>>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=WMsvS7_cBcqLkAWIxIT2CA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAgQBSgA&q=will+honeywell+chronotherm+T882A+work+with+no+transformer%3F&spell=1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Thermostat reads:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Honeywell Chronotherm
>>>>>>>> T882A 1054 1
>>>>>>>> The clock stopped working years ago and is not needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the Transformer reads:
>>>>>>>> AT 75A 1036 2
>>>>>>>> OC 24V NEC Class 2
>>>>>>>> 120V 50-60 CY 3VA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and it has been making a fairly loud humming noise for years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Question: Could I just remove the transformer since I have no use for the
>>>>>>>> clock functions?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The second item in the search above is a four page manual but it is also
>>>>>>>> unclear to me - I know nothing except most thermostats do not need a power
>>>>>>>> supply.
>>>>>>>> I see no harm in just unhooking one of the two wires and see what
>>>>>>>> happens????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS.
>>>>>>>> This is all for a gas heated Carrier forced air heating and cooling unit
>>>>>>>> in the attic.

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