twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 14 topics

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spontaneous oily rag combustion, hood grease fires
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/539d1586c8c73b7c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 3:40 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:40:33 -0500, aemeijers <aemeijers@att.net>
wrote:

>Existential Angst wrote:
>> Awl --
>>
>> Any thoughts on this, esp. on how likely this all is? Anyone with personal
>> experience?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_combustion says Yea on the
>> possibility, for *uncovered* Linseed oil soaked rags. Also large Q's of
>> pistachio nuts -- no foolin....
>>
>> But what are the likelihoods? wrt to various oils, grease? Motor oils?
>>
>> A very cautious shop-type friend says this happened to him, burned down part
>> of his house.
>>
>> Grease fires in vents are a little more understandable, given their
>> proximity to exhaust heat and poss. sparks, but still seems like a long
>> shot. But something to consider, esp. in an old house. I wonder what the
>> buildup is like, with good modern filters.
>> With old mesh washable filters, I saw no buildup in vents that had to be
>> over 30 years old, altho not sure of the cooking hours on these vents.
>>
>> But I do know that if I were freezing in the wilds with my oily rags and
>> kitchen grease, hell would freeze over before I would be able to ignite this
>> stuff. heh....
>>
>Only spontaneous combustion I ever saw with my own eyeballs was a big
>mound of bagged grass clippings, that were cut a hair on the damp side.
>A day of Indiana sun cooking them, then around 10 pm that night, a
>neighbor pounding on the door....
>
>I'm sure it occurs elsewhere, otherwise they wouldn't sell all those red
>safety cans with the spring lids.

Hay Barns are famous for burning down shortly after a load of slightly
damp hay is loaded in.

When I was young, we had a house fire that started via spontaneous
combustion of damp clothing in a metal clothes hamper that was
installed flush in a wall. That was when I heard the term for the
first time as my father was informed by the fire department as to the
cause.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 3:42 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:08:28 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I've heard that spread out flat is acceptable also. Such as
>hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
>
>The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
>actually more likely to combust.
>

The metal container has to be one that shuts tightly to also deprive
it of oxygen. Being metal, it would also contain any fire that
started.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 3:46 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:33:16 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

>On 12/9/2009 9:08 PM Stormin Mormon spake thus:
>
>> I've heard that spread out flat is acceptable also. Such as
>> hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
>>
>> The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
>> actually more likely to combust.
>
>No. The reason one puts oily/solvent-soaked rags in a covered can is so
>there's not enough air to cause outright combustion, even if they do get
>hot enough to spontaneously do so.
>
>The only time I witnessed spontaneous combustion was waaaay back when I
>was a temp worker at Standard Brands (anyone remember that chain?) in
>Tucson, when someone had thrown something oily or, more likely, soaked
>in paint thinner, into a dumpster, and it started smoldering. Of course,
>it gets pretty hot there. As someone else noted in this thread, not
>likely to happen in cold weather (but maybe it can happen even then?).

I have read of damp charcoal briquets stored in a locker on a boat
spontaneously combusting.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:36 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Oxygen deprived -- that does make sense. Thanks.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b20cf5c$0$4978$607ed4bc@cv.net...

The idea of the can is to keep oxygen out, which prevents
the generation of
heat in the first place. Just slowing it down is enough.
Spreading the rags
out to dry is OK, too.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:00 am
From: Frank

On Dec 9, 11:40 pm, aemeijers <aemeij...@att.net> wrote:
> Existential Angst wrote:
> > Awl --
>
> > Any thoughts on this, esp. on how likely this all is? Anyone with personal
> > experience?
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_combustion says Yea on the
> > possibility, for *uncovered* Linseed oil soaked rags. Also large Q's of
> > pistachio nuts -- no foolin....
>
> > But what are the likelihoods? wrt to various oils, grease? Motor oils?
>
> > A very cautious shop-type friend says this happened to him, burned down part
> > of his house.
>
> > Grease fires in vents are a little more understandable, given their
> > proximity to exhaust heat and poss. sparks, but still seems like a long
> > shot. But something to consider, esp. in an old house. I wonder what the
> > buildup is like, with good modern filters.
> > With old mesh washable filters, I saw no buildup in vents that had to be
> > over 30 years old, altho not sure of the cooking hours on these vents.
>
> > But I do know that if I were freezing in the wilds with my oily rags and
> > kitchen grease, hell would freeze over before I would be able to ignite this
> > stuff. heh....
>
> Only spontaneous combustion I ever saw with my own eyeballs was a big
> mound of bagged grass clippings, that were cut a hair on the damp side.
> A day of Indiana sun cooking them, then around 10 pm that night, a
> neighbor pounding on the door....
>
> I'm sure it occurs elsewhere, otherwise they wouldn't sell all those red
> safety cans with the spring lids.
>
> --
> aem sends...

Fires all the time in composting operation north of here for mushroom
farmers.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:03 am
From: "HeyBub"

Existential Angst wrote:
>
> Grease fires in vents are a little more understandable, given their
> proximity to exhaust heat and poss. sparks, but still seems like a
> long shot. But something to consider, esp. in an old house. I
> wonder what the buildup is like, with good modern filters.
> With old mesh washable filters, I saw no buildup in vents that had to
> be over 30 years old, altho not sure of the cooking hours on these
> vents.

Well, it happened to me. I wasn't THERE but I had to deal with the results.

I had rented a house to the Consul General of the Domincan Republic. His
wife evidently kept a vat of boiling oil on the stove just in case anyone
wanted a quick snack (like a banana). Anyway, the vat of oil caught fire
and, with the exhaust fan going lickety-split turned the whole exhause shaft
into a flame-thrower. The inferno reached the cap on the roof which acted to
redirect the flames into a perfect three-foot diameter circle and burnt a
hole in the roof.

Eventually these fools moved away, leaving several curious artifacts behind.
For example, each of the four bedrooms had a simple hook-latch installed on
the doors. From the hallway! The result was that anybody locked in the
bedroom couldn't get out!

Aside: I eventually sold that bad-luck house. About a year after I sold it,
the new owner, despairing of his condition, what with his wife leaving him
and all, connected a garden hose to the log-lighter, snaked it down the
hall, to the bedroom where he lay down and went to sleep. Some time later he
awoke from, no doubt, fitfull dreams and attempted to light up a toke.

Blew the fuckin' house to smithereens. No joke. This was a four-bedroom,
brick veneer house of 1800 sq ft and it was reduced to a pile of junk. Four
other houses caught fire from the burning debris raining down from the sky.
The volunteer fire department arrived on the scene, I'm told, and pulled an
"Aw shit!" alarm. Presently about a dozen pieces of equipment from Houston
arrived and poured so much water on the mess that a lake was formed. The
owner was taken to the hospital with moderate burns.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:29 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Dec 10, 8:36 am, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Oxygen deprived -- that does make sense. Thanks.
> Christopher A. Young
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> The idea of the can is to keep oxygen out, which prevents
> the generation of
> heat in the first place. Just slowing it down is enough.
> Spreading the rags
> out to dry is OK, too.

The culprit is oxidation of unsaturated fats:
http://shippai.jst.go.jp/en/Detail?fn=0&id=CC1000070&

Unsaturated means a pair of carbon atoms double-bonded to each other
rather than being connected by a single bond and having hydrogen
attached to the other bonds. The double bond is less stable and oxygen
can attack it, slowly at room temperature and faster as it heats up.
If enough oxygen gets in but the heat doesn't dissipate the reaction
can run away.

This dismisses cholesterol concerns and I don't believe all of it, but
it does describe unsaturated fats in simple terms.
http://www.coconutoil.com/ray_peat_unsaturated_oils.htm

Natural products are exempt from strict regulations on unproven
advertising claims.

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Akki And Anushkas Dinner Date "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKFGR7ia4
hM"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8dbe641bda32816f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 3:41 am
From: Priyanka Mehta

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PLC?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/12b9811622e75f4d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 3:50 am
From: "RogerN"

"cavelamb" <cavelamb@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xqqdnfyaOZNRH73WnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> Tim Wescott wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:21:09 -0600, cavelamb wrote:
>>
>>> Tim Wescott wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:11:34 -0600, Don Foreman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 06:13:30 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
>>>>> <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Too much bloatware in the world today.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What we need are more Assembly Programmers!
>>>>>>>> Are you volunteering to assist?
>>>>>>> Well, maybe...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I got a "development system" for christmas?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I talked this project over with my crop consultant today. He said I
>>>>>> should apply for a research grant and thinks I'd probably win. In
>>>>>> that case, this device needs better EE than I can do. A ways down the
>>>>>> road, but would you like to help design phase two?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karl
>>>>>>
>>>>> Sure! I have development systems and C compilers for PIC and Atmel
>>>>> AVR. Cavelamb is probably more competent, so include us both!
>>>> So long as you each buy a copy of my book.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I was afraid you were going to over complicate things, but your articles
>>> are pretty clear and readable.
>>
>> You want things just complicated enough -- in my life I've unwound
>> innumerable vast snarls of kluges that were wound around core functions
>> that were just too simple. When you can double the complexity of the
>> core, make it work _right_, and as a consequence take out five times as
>> many lines of code and/or circuitry from the periphery, then you
>> understand that there is such a thing as _too_ simple.
>>
>> This is why I'm kind a torn in Karl's case -- he may well be able to get
>> it working with a simple state machine implemented with hysteresis and
>> timing. Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure is to try it out.
>> But fortunately, if he starts with a processor that can absorb the
>> necessary algorithms then he can also start out simple and see how it
>> goes without being married to a too-simple core algorithm from the
>> outset.
>>
>
> Copy that!
>
> That's what I was referring to re: the small controllers like PICs and
> Stamps.
>
> And - the reason I still prefer the Z-80 for control work. It has the room
> and
> power to expand, a very flexible instruction set (Like 16 bit math, for
> instance) and decades of practical experience to fall back on.
>
> I really do hate painting myself into a corner.
>
> "Things should be as simple as possible -- and no simpler"
> Albert Einstein
>
> Richard

Do some of the PIC's have the ability to use external memory(pins used as
address and data)? I thought maybe the 17CXXX had that capability, I
thought I read it in the specs but never looked at the detail.

Years ago I bought a PIC Servo chipset and built a nice servo control on my
solderless breadboard. Once it was tuned correctly it was awesome. The
chipset used one PIC to read the encoder and another did the 32 bit math,
PID, and trajectory control. It was supposed to be capable of tracking a
500 line (2000 counts in quadrature) at up to 15,000 RPM. And today PICs
have a lot more RAM, and program memory.

I have a PIC 16F877 and a PICBASIC PRO compiler, I need to start playing
with, maybe make my own robot similar to the BOE BOT my son's getting for
Christmas.

RogerN

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 4:16 am
From: Pete Keillor

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:24:15 -0600, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Pete Keillor wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:06:14 -0600, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Pete Keillor wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:06:17 -0600, Don Foreman
>>>> <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "Karl Townsend" <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4b1d5e08$0$77560$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
>>>>>>> You described the exact issue. Mechanically, I've got it geared down to
>>>>>>> raise/lower 12"/minute with a total travel of 60 inches. Gets hard to gear
>>>>>>> it much slower. My "plan A" is two stats so you have a dead band, then
>>>>>>> play with % run to get response without oscillation. I suppose if you knew
>>>>>>> exactly what percent on/off was optimum you could just gear it for 100%
>>>>>>> on.
>>>>> You can't know that because it will change significantly with cloud
>>>>> cover, sun angle, wind, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It ain't hard, it just ain't cheap. I used a double reduction
>>>> Sumitomo cycloid drive of 3400:1 to drive the continuous filter I
>>>> invented. Web movement maximum was 60"/hour, min was close to zero.
>>>> I'd mark the web, go have a cup of coffee, come back and stick a ruler
>>>> on it to make sure it was working.
>>>>
>>>> Pete Keillor
>>>
>>> Well, not to be contradictory, but it is both easy and cheep - in software.
>>>
>>> Once you have the drive running that can handle the mechanical loads,
>>> controlling the speed is simple stuff.
>>>
>>> Richard
>>
>> Yeah, you're right if discontinuous works, as in this case. I wanted
>> continuous motion in the case I described.
>>
>> Pete Keillor
>
>
>Pulse width modulate.
>
>The motor will integrate that into continuous motion.
>
>If the requirements get REAL slow, you may have to pulse both ways.
>Drive forward Tx
>Drive backwards Tc-n
>
>Keep the motor energized so it doesn't wander off position.
>
>:)

The requirement I didn't mention was a lot of torque, in the 100's of
ft-lb. range. That says gearbox, efficent one. Cycloids are about
96%, 2-stage about 90%. Horsepower requirement was low, speed
extremely low, torque high. Worked well.

The torque was caused by several feet of o-ring plus web drag at
pressure with the viscous hot (230C) material being filtered. It was
an unusual requirement, but definitely one for a good gearbox.
Actually, the gearbox was a tiny fraction of the overall cost on this
beast.

Pete Keillor

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 4:21 am
From: Pete Keillor

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:54:24 -0600, Don Foreman
<dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:02:29 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
><lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Don Foreman <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> fired this volley in
>>news:cb80i5tauavh8j16urf6f3rda4sqbpn8u8@4ax.com:
>>
>>> start
>>> if temp_too_high then open_curtain_a_smidge
>>> else if temp_too-low then close_curtain_a_smidge
>>> waitabit
>>> goto start
>>>
>>
>>In which case, no position sensing would be necesary, at all.
>
>Right.
>>
>>If the curtain hits a limit, it just stops at a mechanical limit switch.
>>If the controller senses that the temperature stays a certain amount past
>>a warning limit either way, and isn't making an excursion toward the
>>desired temperature, it signals an alarm saying it can no longer cope.
>>
>>That's a good idea, Don. Dead-simple, too. No PLC is necessary if the
>>out-of-control alarms aren't needed: Just a timer and temperature
>>comparator with a "safe range of temperatures" dead-band. Wait a period
>>of time, and decide to move the curtain, or not, then do it again, over
>>and over.
>
>It's just my understanding and expression of Karl's idea.
>
>Karl suggests using two t'stats rather than a temp sensor. No A/D
>necessary -- although the 14-pin PIC16F684 ($1.96) does have on-chip
>A/D. Again, KISS. All that would be needed would be the PIC chip,
>some transistors and diodes, the T-stats and limit switches and a
>5-volt regulator if it runs off a 12-volt battery. Oh, and a few
>lines of assy code.
>
>I think I'd use the A/D and a couple of pots so motor on-time and
>delay time could be user-variable, even if the temp sensors are
>t'stats.
>
>I agree with Tim about concepts that are "too simple to work well",
>but this is so danged easy to try that little would be lost if it
>disappoints.

Another approach (although the 12 volt thing might be an issue) are
regular temperature controllers. They're available pretty cheaply,
take most any sensor input, and can have on-off, time proportioning,
or full analog outputs. Time proportioning might be the ticket. You
can limit the on-time per cycle, and set the cycle time to what you
want.

Pete Keillor

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:37 am
From: Joseph Gwinn

In article <SNadnT19DdnsGL3WnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >>>> But you do have to be careful about writing any wood peckers into your
> >>>> code.
> >>> Even with care, one hears the pecking from time to time.
> >>>
> >>> For an extreme example, fly-by-wire bet-your-life avionics code is
> >>> developed to the DO-178B standard, which increases the cost per line of
> >>> the resulting code by a factor of about ten over the process used to
> >>> develop for instance radar signal and data processing code.
> >>>
> >>> The resulting avionics code is very reliable, and yet bugs are still
> >>> found from time to time, even in systems with many flight hours to their
> >>> names.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Joe Gwinn
> >>
> >> Ok, but make the limit switches DPXX types so I can monitor the status
> >> in software. If something did go wrong bad enough to trip the mechanical
> >> limits I want the software to know about it.
> >
> > That makes sense, although the computer may no longer be sane enough to
> > care.
> >
> > It would be double throw (two circuits) double throw (each circuit has a
> > normally-open contact and a normally-closed contact). One circuit stops
> > the motor, the other tells the computer why it gets no respect.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
>
>
> Lose contact with reality for a moment and all is lost, even if the computer
> is still working perfectly.
>
> But it is possible to build it so that it can recover.
> Aircraft Fly-By-Wire systems HAVE to. There is no choice.

Well, yes, but to the limit of the provided control laws (which capture
the complex and nonlinear aerodynamic behaviour of the airframe in
question). The last few cases where something odd happened in a
fly-by-wire thing (that was not traced to sensor malfunction) it turned
out that the airplane somehow got into a flight regime outside of the
regime where the provided laws were valid, and the fix involved changes
to and expansions of the control laws.

> There is no connection between the pilot's controls and the aircraft's
> control surfaces.
>
> The pilot's controls tell the computer what he wants and the computer
> operates the flight surfaces to make that happen (or even prevent that from
> happening!)
>
> You might want to contemplate that for a few hours - next time you fly
> commercial. (mad scientist laugh!)

Actually the lack of direct connection has been true in large transport
aircraft for many years, long before computers arrived, because the
required forces on the aerodynamic control surfaces of a large airplane
well exceed what a human can generate in the allowed response time.

In the old days, there was a hydraulic control system controlled by a
human. Now the human is either supplemented or supplanted by a computer.

> Back in the early days of the space program, Mercury and Gemini used analog
> computation machines for control of the hardware.
>
> If a glitch happened, the system recovered as soon as the glitch was gone.
> Outputs changed as fast as resistors and capacitors react to the inputs.

True, so long as the analog system didn't oscillate, and aerodynamic
response-time lags can cause oscillation. So can the human pilot:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation>.

> But with digital systems, the latency is longer. Sample input, process
> stuff, make output, THEN go back and take the next sample.
> That can take a considerable amount of time.

This is not the problem at all. The digital system samples far faster
than the response time of the airframe in question, so the digital
system exactly replicates the behavior of an analog system built to the
same control laws.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem>

The problem is not that fly-by-wire systems are digital sampled-data
systems, it is that they contain computers and especially software, and
a software bug can do literally anything. Pure hardware solutions tend
to degrade far more gracefully. The intent of DO-178B is to eliminate
all software bugs from the control software.

Joe Gwinn

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT range report that very few readers will find of interest
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/72ac3a999eeebfa7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 4:44 am
From: "Karl Townsend"

...
> Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
> the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
> not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
> the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
> moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
> was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
> at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
> front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
> those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
> this is gonna turn out."
>
> Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
> million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

Last night was brutal! makes me dream of a fishing trip. Maybe you should
come too.

Karl

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 4:55 am
From: Pete Keillor

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:44:08 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
<karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:

>
>...
>> Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
>> the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
>> not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
>> the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
>> moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
>> was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
>> at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
>> front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
>> those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
>> this is gonna turn out."
>>
>> Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
>> million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.
>
>Last night was brutal! makes me dream of a fishing trip. Maybe you should
>come too.
>
>Karl
>
Last Friday, I actually saw a flurry here in central Texas (moved back
from Michigan a month or so ago). Everybody was freaked out at even
the possibility of snow, and a lot stayed home. It didn't stick. The
scary thing isn't a little snow, it's the sight of Texans driving on
snow. The thought is almost enough to make me stay home, too.

This morning it's 30 F. I can handle that. No snow in sight, as it
should be.

Pete Keillor

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Use of primitive tools
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/66f372aa45888cfe?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 4:50 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Dec 10, 5:18 am, Bruce L. Bergman <bruceNOSPAMberg...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:41:31 -0800 (PST), Andrew VK3BFA
> >On Nov 29, 10:50 am, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
> >> Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >> > On Nov 28, 5:54 pm, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
> >Sorta correct - theres a large lot of electronics (digital) devoted to
> >getting the software decoded digital signal onto the screen, either
> >LCD or plasma. Has to map and address the screen in an X-Y plane -

The digital radios I worked on sometimes had hardware Matched Filters
between the A/D converter and the DSP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matched_filter

The too-far-ahead-of-its-time color ink jet printer used custom ASICs
to remap linear images onto the multiple ink jets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLSI_Technology

These functions could be done in either hardware or software, the
choice sometimes depending on the skills available on the development
team. Twice I was temporarily promoted from lab tech to custom IC
designer to help.

> The Manufacturers of all electronics should be REQUIRED to release
> full schematics into the public domain when the unit is out of
> production and no longer supported, and the replacement circuit boards
> are no longer available. Because old gear sometimes must be repaired
> when there are no new replacements available for them, and you need
> the old gear to read the old media.
> ...
> And without the board schematics and the realignment procedures, and
> the Super Seekrit conversion list of proprietary chip numbers to the
> industry-standard chips they had relabeled, it can be almost
> impossible to fix the unit - unless you were the engineer who built it
> in the first place.
>
> --<< Bruce >>---

When circuits include a PIC or other programmable device the schematic
isn't enough. Little stubs of circuity stick out of it with no hint of
when or how they are active. Once a member of the original design team
leaves some faults in the product can become impossible to diagnose
and repair even in-house.

Companies don't release unpatented "trade secrets" hidden in the
software.

Devices like these are an extreme example.
http://www.xilinx.com/products/devices.htm
The compiler includes a randomizer so that for instance it won't
repeat a compilation that assigns a critical clock signal to an
excessively long path. This means that the very same schematic may
work perfectly one time its compiled and not the next. I spent quite a
while driving between my CAD room and the radio site, through the snow
and wolves, trying to get every function working.

If you want to pursue this line ask Microsoft to release operating
systems into the public domain after they stop supporting them.

How is all this a Primitive Tool???

jsw

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:17 am
From: Joseph Gwinn

In article
<de389d75-cdb2-43de-8ef2-2133d8791806@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Jim Wilkins <kb1dal@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
>
> When circuits include a PIC or other programmable device the schematic
> isn't enough. Little stubs of circuity stick out of it with no hint of
> when or how they are active. Once a member of the original design team
> leaves some faults in the product can become impossible to diagnose
> and repair even in-house.
>
> Companies don't release unpatented "trade secrets" hidden in the
> software.
>
> Devices like these are an extreme example.
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/devices.htm
> The compiler includes a randomizer so that for instance it won't
> repeat a compilation that assigns a critical clock signal to an
> excessively long path. This means that the very same schematic may
> work perfectly one time its compiled and not the next. I spent quite a
> while driving between my CAD room and the radio site, through the snow
> and wolves, trying to get every function working.

A subcontractor had exactly this problem in the 1990s. Drove them nuts
because while the compiler was randomizing paths and pinouts, the
artwork on the prototype board strangely didn't automatically rearrange
itself to follow.

Completely stopped integration until the engineer broke the undocumented
proprietary CAD file format and figured out how to force the pinouts to
remain stable.

I don't see how randomizing paths and pinouts helps their sales or
protects anybody's intellectual property. I bet this comes under the
heading of "don't ascribe to malice that which can be adequately
explained by incompetence".

Joe Gwinn

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What Is The Best Way To Learn DP Technology Esprit?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/4cb0d82e50887dd1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:21 am
From: Zymrgy

On Dec 9, 9:40 pm, Joe788 <larryro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Find out why this DP Technology Esprit video training is highly
> recommended by the Jon Banquer blog:
>
> http://jonbanquer.wordpress.com/what-is-the-best-way-to-learn-dp-tech...

Only clueless idiots need videos to learn. Get a book Yoni....read,
use the software...its called learning

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Trying to decide on ceiling material.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c1a73c9de4fcdeb5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:23 am
From: stryped

On Dec 9, 4:10 pm, "ATP*" <waxwingsl...@azurepane.com> wrote:
> "Ted Frater" <ted.fra...@virgin.net> wrote in message
>
> news:m5TTm.59798$AD4.18831@newsfe04.ams2...
>
>
>
>
>
> > stryped wrote:
> >> I am needing advice and you guys are some of the smartest on the web.
> >> As you know I have a 30x30 building with 10 foot ceilings. The trusses
> >> are 4 feet apart so I am not sure I can put a drywall ceiling. I plan
> >> on drywalling the walls.
>
> >> My thoughts are this, either a suspended ceiling with the 2x4 tile or
> >> I thought of using the soffit material like that is used on the roof
> >> of my porch. (The kind without vent holes). When I figured up the cost
> >> for both they were very similar. (Not cheap).
>
> >> We have suspended ceilings at work and when new they look good but
> >> whenever there is a roof leak or something they get ugly looking
> >> stains on the tiles and the tiles are not cheap. Also, I am a little
> >> worried about the humidity messing with those tiles over time. Also,
> >> when I read the literature, it said to plan on 20 hours of labor to do
> >> a suspended ceiling for a 9x14 room! Since I have to work myself, I
> >> cant image how long it would take to do a 30x30.
>
> >> So, I have gone back and forth on the issue. Do you guys see any
> >> problem with soffit material? My thought is to use 1x4's nailed on the
> >> bottom of the trusses about every 2-4 feet to help minimize sagging.
> >> Will the soffit still sag? Will it be possible to keep the rows of
> >> soffit straight and how do I go about doing that. (With a chalk line?)
>
> >> Above whatever type ceiling I use will be clear plastic vapor barrier
> >> with unfaced r-30 fiberglass insulation.
>
> >> One caveat is I can see sometime in the future needing to get in the
> >> ceiling to run wire or whatever. Hopefully someday to run a central
> >> heat/air unit but that may be a long time from now.
>
> >> Also, on another note, we have had torrential rains last night. I had
> >> drops of water on the center of the floor. I crawled in the ceiling
> >> and the best I can tell is it is blowing in from the top "ridge cap"
> >> that is on the center of the roof. I assume this is used for
> >> ventilalation?
>
> >> Anyhow I really appreciate your help!
>
> > If it was my workshop, id go for 2in thick 8ft by 4ft rigid insulation
> > foam, ali foil covered both sides. This iswaterproof, wont sag on a 2ft
> > fixing, and is light and strong
> > batten as you say with 4 by 1 across the trusses every 2 ft over the
> > whole area of the ceiling , start one side and work from a platform.
> > 3in screws with large penny wasers say 2in dia. spacedevery 18in.
> > this will insulate, not sag and last for years.
> > Cuts easily with an hand saw.
> > You will need a lazy man ,
>
> Stryped, do you live anywhere near Gunner?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I dont know, why?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 9" SB lathe bed worn---options? (Metal content!! Long)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/cccf847e2eb24fe8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:30 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Dec 9, 6:25 pm, Ignoramus18200 <ignoramus18...@NOSPAM.
18200.invalid> wrote:
> On 2009-12-09, Steve Lusardi <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:
> > There is no economical way of saving this machine. Scrap it for
> > parts on eBay and buy a better 13 x 40 machine that is not used
> > up. .... Steve
>
> Steve Lusardi was the first guy to say it to me. It took me a year to
> believe him. Now I know that he is right.
> i

I milled the worn bed of my 6" AA/Sears lathe. The carriage is now
~0.030 lower and the half nuts don't line up with the lead screw. I
had planned to install 1/32" brass shims under the carriage to raise
it back but they caused too much play, and anyway I have a larger
lathe.

If you have the room for it there is rough, messy work that can be
done on a poor lathe to save the good one, such as turning cast iron,
metal spinning, and lapping or polishing. The bed and leadscrew at the
tailstock end may not be so bad.

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Driving a pickup with a big tank full of liquid
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/5db36914f504ce38?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:11 am
From: "Pete C."

JR North wrote:
>
> 500 gal of water is 4,170 lbs, a scooch over 2 tons.
> 500 gal gas, about 3,060
> 500 gal diesel about 3,500
> Those are some pickups...

350/3500 series DRW an up handle them just fine. The "1 Ton" isn't 1 Ton
any more, they are quite a bit more.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: First cans now bagels
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fe6009efd7205cae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:18 am
From: Joe

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:49:15 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>>I had to buy some Betadine surgical scrub (the sudsy version) a few
>>years ago, and was amazed at the cost for a little 6 oz bottle. Early
>>this year, I bought a full gallon (of the Betadine brand, no less)
>>from a veterinary supply place (Kentucky Horse Store, or something
>>like that) for 25 bucks, shipping included. It's more than a lifetime
>>supply for me. I prefer it over anything else for cleansing a wound
>>before dressing it.
>
>With a 2 year shelf life, it's not quite a lifetime supply, unless you
>know something we don't, Joe.

I've concluded that *everything* has to have an expiration date, even
if it's just to force you to buy more. After 5+ years, some older
stuff still works well enough to be indistinguishable from new
product. I suppose eventually the povidone iodine breaks down, but I
haven't seen it happen yet. OTOH, just last week we cleaned out an
area of the attic to allow access for installing a new HVAC system and
I found a bottle of iodine xtals that I've had since the late 60s;
nearly all of it was gone - sublimated through the tightly sealed cap
& all. Nothing is forever, I guess - even diamonds revert to regular
carbon after a long enough time.

Joe

>
>
>>Also, an earlier poster mentioned bacitracin. I always used generic
>>Neosporin, usually to good effect, but it didn't work too well on
>>burns. Our plant nurse told me that bacitracin by itself is best for
>>burns, because one of the other antibiotics in Neosporin actually
>>impedes the healing of burns. Worked for me.
>
>I'll have to remember that. I usually use a triple antibiotic.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Star Gate?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/017d7f3386778b6e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:20 am
From: "Buerste"

"cavelamb" <cavelamb@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:-LednfRRNcYaDb3WnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@earthlink.com...
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2764647/Spiral-UFO-puts-Norway-in-a-spin.html
>
> A MYSTERIOUS giant spiral of light that dominated the sky over Norway this
> morning has stunned experts — who believe the space spectacle is an
> entirely new astral phenomenon.
>
> Thousands of awe-struck Norwegians bombarded the Meteorological Institute
> to ask what the incredible light — that could be seen in the pre-dawn sky
> for hundreds of miles — could possibly be.
>
> The phenomenon has been dubbed 'Star-Gate' — as the world's top scientists
> and the military lined up to admit they were baffled.

I was told that "top scientists" knew EVERYTHING.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:35 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Dec 10, 9:20 am, "Buerste" <buer...@wowway.com> wrote:
> "cavelamb" <cavel...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>
> I was told that "top scientists" knew EVERYTHING.

Ask the top Russian scientists if they have launched any ionospheric
experiments recently.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dual Saw -- anyone use one?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/16bd3d055c4043ae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:23 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <4b20b69e$0$22524$607ed4bc@cv.net>,
"Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote:

> Awl --
>
> I haven't, but for the life of me, all I see are *disadvantages* to this
> gadget.
>
> The first is, of course, cost.
> This thing is triple the cost of a 7 1/4" circ saw, with blades that are 4-6
> times the cost of std circ saw blades. Not to mention the lack of
> availability.
>
> Next, I can't see that it can do *anything* that a circ saw cannot do. In
> fact, a lot less, and with a lot less accuracy.
> The only ""advantage" is that the blade is teeny, so you have lower sfpm,
> and can get away with cutting rebar, etc -- and I wonder for how long,
> before the blade goes kaput.
>
> It has no plate for straight cuts, no mitre, it is basically a 4 1/2"
> grinder with a trim saw blade -- $19 from HF.
> They never say what the blade size is, but it looks 4.5 - 5".
>
> As always, the infomercial is highly misleading. You cannot do sink-type
> cutouts without using a jig saw -- pure geometry of a circular blade.
>
> True, it could reduce kickback, in case of a snag, or cutting unsupported
> "in air", but I never had a problem with that either.
>
> That "spark test" with gasoline was fraud.
>
> Another infomercial hustle, afaict.
>
> But if there are different experiences, do tell.

We've done the dual saw thread at least twice recently on a.h.r. Check
the archives.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is it? Set 314
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/1649717b9e54dfd0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:26 am
From: "joeljcarver@aol.com"

> http://55tools.blogspot.com/

A couple of wild guesses:

1798 - Counter top cigar tip cutter

1799 - Table tongs for some sort of food item

==============================================================================
TOPIC: America's Archaic Election System
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9acfd28b46a76774?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 6:34 am
From: "Buerste"

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:P4-dnf3FfbnZoL3WnZ2dnUVZ_tZi4p2d@earthlink.com...
>
> Buerste wrote:
>>
>> As an American citizen, I'm ashamed. I'm not sending you a check, but
>> I'm
>> ashamed. (unless you really need a check)
>
>
> No, I'm not asking for money. :) I manage to scrape by, but I wiped
> out my savings several years ago.
>
>
> --
> Offworld checks no longer accepted!

With just the little bit that I hear that you do with vets and other
downtrodden, and your health issues that don't keep you down, you are a
hero!

==============================================================================

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Thursday, December 10, 2009

rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 14 topics - digest

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