twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 14 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: to create a living mind
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d25059791a6cc3a0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 7:49 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

technomaNge wrote:
>
> Alfred Pennyworth wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
>
> >> Professor Markram's 'Blue Brain' project, must rank as one of the most
> >> extraordinary endeavours in scientific history.
> >> ....
> >>
> > Maybe they could implant one into your head.
>
> They can't put one into Cliffy's head until
> they can make a bullshit-powered battery.

A methane powered fuel cell?

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Complexity, berlers, the weather, and my aching ass.....
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/b01668ddc46825d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 7:57 pm
From: Jim Wilkins

On Jan 9, 10:34 pm, Steve Ackman <st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com>
wrote:
> In <6f9ae0a7-c9c4-43a8-853a-5ec67acc6...@upsg2000gro.googlegroups.com>, on
> Sat, 9 Jan 2010 18:06:54 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins, kb1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Funny, New England is having a mild winter (ie the same as yours).
>
> Huh? The wunderground sticker shows Lisbon, NH at
> -10F at the moment. It's been cold there pretty much
> all of Dec and this month to date.

The southern part has been in the 20's with occasional light flurries
all week, unusually steady weather for us. This time of year we often
drop to zero F.

In the 70's my father had friends at the Ammonoosuc golf course near
Lisbon. According to them temps dropped to -40 fairly often, but I
haven't noticed even -30F on weather reports recently. I remember -30F
in Concord, -20F in Durham. Some temperature records show a max in the
1930's, then a drop to a minimum around 1970 and now we are back
closer to 1930's levels.

jsw

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 7:59 pm
From: Kirk Gordon

Ed Huntress wrote:
>
> Some people really get into it. I wish I had time for it, because I find it
> really interesting. I guess it goes with an interest in writing.
>
> BTW, I've lived in six different states, in three distinct parts of the
> country, and my South Jersey (where I was born) accent is almost completely
> gone. There was a linguist at Michigan State who found me very interesting.
> She was real nice looking, too. d8-)
>
> If I let down, though, and say "tomato," "potato," or the like, in ordinary
> conversation, anyone who knows his stuff will peg me as South Jersey or
> Philadelphia without a moment's hesitation. ("schwa" phonetic -- apparently
> it never completely leaves you)

Years ago, I had an experience with the "it never completely leaves
you" phenomenon. I was in a meeting with maybe a dozen engineers,
discussing a project. The person running the meeting was from Tennessee.

Uh... Sorry... That's TENNessee, not TennesSEE.

The rest of the people in the meeting were, like me, from
Southeastern Michigan. My contribution to the meeting happened early,
and then I got to sit back and listen to the rest. And as I listened, a
funny thing happened. Slowly, gradually, everybody else in the meeting
started talking with little bits of a TENNessee accent. Not much; but
just enough that I could hear it happening. I'd heard this sort of
thing before, and even fallen into it myself; but in this case it was
like it was playing out on a stage, and I got to see and hear it with
remarkable clarity.

It's worth noting that this meeting took place in maybe 1978 or '79,
not long after the first Star Wars movie had been released.

As the meeting ended, I found myself alone in the room with guy from
TENNessee. Just for fun and conversation, I asked him about what I'd
noticed. "Why is it", I said, "that someone from the South will never
lose his accent, no matter where he goes or how long he stays there; but
people like me, and the rest of this group, will start to sound like you
after only an hour of conversation?"

He looked at me for a moment, considering the question. Then he
smiled and said "The force kin give ye power over weak mahnds."

True story.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:17 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Kirk Gordon" <kg1@gordon-eng2.com> wrote in message
news:4B4950BA.3030402@gordon-eng2.com...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>
>> Some people really get into it. I wish I had time for it, because I find
>> it really interesting. I guess it goes with an interest in writing.
>>
>> BTW, I've lived in six different states, in three distinct parts of the
>> country, and my South Jersey (where I was born) accent is almost
>> completely gone. There was a linguist at Michigan State who found me very
>> interesting. She was real nice looking, too. d8-)
>>
>> If I let down, though, and say "tomato," "potato," or the like, in
>> ordinary conversation, anyone who knows his stuff will peg me as South
>> Jersey or Philadelphia without a moment's hesitation. ("schwa"
>> phonetic -- apparently it never completely leaves you)
>
>
> Years ago, I had an experience with the "it never completely leaves
> you" phenomenon. I was in a meeting with maybe a dozen engineers,
> discussing a project. The person running the meeting was from Tennessee.
>
> Uh... Sorry... That's TENNessee, not TennesSEE.
>
> The rest of the people in the meeting were, like me, from Southeastern
> Michigan. My contribution to the meeting happened early, and then I got
> to sit back and listen to the rest. And as I listened, a funny thing
> happened. Slowly, gradually, everybody else in the meeting started
> talking with little bits of a TENNessee accent. Not much; but just enough
> that I could hear it happening. I'd heard this sort of thing before, and
> even fallen into it myself; but in this case it was like it was playing
> out on a stage, and I got to see and hear it with remarkable clarity.
>
> It's worth noting that this meeting took place in maybe 1978 or '79,
> not long after the first Star Wars movie had been released.
>
> As the meeting ended, I found myself alone in the room with guy from
> TENNessee. Just for fun and conversation, I asked him about what I'd
> noticed. "Why is it", I said, "that someone from the South will never
> lose his accent, no matter where he goes or how long he stays there; but
> people like me, and the rest of this group, will start to sound like you
> after only an hour of conversation?"
>
> He looked at me for a moment, considering the question. Then he smiled
> and said "The force kin give ye power over weak mahnds."
>
> True story.
>
> KG

Ha! Yes, that's a good one. I've noticed what you're talking about; I do it
sometimes myself, when I'm in south Jersey, with my mother's cousins, who
have an accent so thick you could cut it.

The sound that really kills me is an Appalachian twang. I lived in
Hagerstown, Maryland, when it was a lot more remote than it is now, and it
sounded like the hills of West Virginia.

And don't get me started on that Northern Cities Vowel Shift. My in-laws
have it so bad that I sometimes can't understand what they're saying. They
live about 25 mi. SW of Chicago, where it's really strong. And they don't
notice it at all. They don't know what I'm talking about when I mention
their accent.

--
Ed Huntress

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:48 pm
From: "Existential Angst"

It IS a force.... yo...

Nary a Bri'ish rock'n'roller speaks bri'ish on stage, allof'em sound like
bruhthuhs'n'shit -- including Dusty Springfield (Son of a Preacher Man, in
which she kicked Aretha's azz, yo).

Excepting, of course, for those dweebs Herman's Hermits -- Mrs. Brown you
have a lovely daugh'er... goodgawd....

Even fukn Abba, who spoke no effing Englich at all, got a bit of the drawl,
y'all....

Meanwhile, Tina Turner (from the Bayou) acquired a Bri'ish accent....
WTF??? fukn hilarious.....
Tough to pin her down, tho, cuz, well, Bri'ish accent or not, she's
basically incoherent -- Ike mighta done slapped her too hard too often....

Funnier than when suburbiboyz try to get down is when the southern
illiterati try to get literate'n'properized right quick. goodgawd, dat makes
my teeth hurt....

Marilyn Monroe (heeyyy, norma jean) always carried around a thick book --
nary a crack in the binding, tho.
Mebbe she wanted JFK, Bobby, and the rest of Congress to read to her
first....
--
EA

>
> True story.
>
> KG
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A little metal project
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/3700e4ee54df5fc3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 7:57 pm
From: "Bill McKee"

"Mark Rand" <randm@internettie.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mn8ik5lukq5eipajgukcof1vd9ep47m5vv@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 23:45:09 -0600, Don Foreman
> <dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>After thinking about that some today, I'm leaning toward a dirt-simple
>>hysteretic switching current regulator comprised of a 220 uH inductor
>>(35 cents at AxMan), MCP6022 opamp, MOSFET, Schottky diode, sense
>>resistor and voltage reference. Maybe 2 more resistors to get a 0.5
>>volt ref from a 1.23V bandgap device. All bench stock. I sometimes
>>build such simple circuits "in air", no circuit board. Just solder
>>the various parts together with perhaps a bit of hookup wire and then
>>pot the lot in epoxy on top of the wallwart xfmr that supplies the
>>low-voltage line-isolated DC.
>>
>
> Where did all those nice unijunction transistors of yesteryear go :-(
>
>
> Mark Rand
> RTFM

Probably a few up in the attic.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:16 pm
From: Don Foreman

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 00:48:00 +0000, Mark Rand
<randm@internettie.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 23:45:09 -0600, Don Foreman
><dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>After thinking about that some today, I'm leaning toward a dirt-simple
>>hysteretic switching current regulator comprised of a 220 uH inductor
>>(35 cents at AxMan), MCP6022 opamp, MOSFET, Schottky diode, sense
>>resistor and voltage reference. Maybe 2 more resistors to get a 0.5
>>volt ref from a 1.23V bandgap device. All bench stock. I sometimes
>>build such simple circuits "in air", no circuit board. Just solder
>>the various parts together with perhaps a bit of hookup wire and then
>>pot the lot in epoxy on top of the wallwart xfmr that supplies the
>>low-voltage line-isolated DC.
>>
>
>Where did all those nice unijunction transistors of yesteryear go :-(
>
>
>Mark Rand
>RTFM

They're still available. 48 cents at Digi-Key
http://tinyurl.com/y86xeer

In the UK, Farnell's has 'em:
http://tinyurl.com/y9gk9fx

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:21 pm
From: Don Foreman

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 18:33:30 -0800, Winston <Winston@bigbrother.net>
wrote:

>Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>> I mentioned earlier working for both MEs and EEs. They don't
>> understand each others' secret language and aren't always too happy
>> that I do.
>
>A sales guy I knew, frustrated with the noises made by electronic
>engineers dubbed their language "di double - E feedback".
>
>--Winston

Whereas, a sales guy or politician can speak for 20 minutes without
saying a damned thing so it doesn't matter whether or not their
utterance is comprehensible.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:27 pm
From: Don Foreman

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:04:25 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>
>At the other end of the scale, do you have any of those 5V switchers
>laying around? Last I looked, a surplus place near me has a big stack
>of brand new compact 5V wall plug switchers for about $2-3.

The surplus store near me has some but they want more like 12 bux for
them. Arrgghh, highway robbery! I found a little 2.4VA 8VRMS 60-Hz
xfmr in my goodiebox that should work nicely.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tea Party Flourishes
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/976a9b15742f10fa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:00 pm
From: bvallely

.
> Why do you guys think it's so cool to equate tea parties with tea-bagging?>
.
Because the only actual success Obama will have to point to in his
State of the Union speech will be the Iraq War. They have to make up
shit to divert America.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Odd Q on machine stability
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/68a493440a840bfb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:11 pm
From: "John R. Carroll"

D Murphy wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
> news:Sp6dndEKoNzt29TWnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> "Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4b48d8a1$0$4980$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>> Awl --
>>>>
>>>> Several times mention has been made of dancing machines, and the
>>>> importance of firm anchoring, level-ness, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Suppose a machine -- cnc or manual -- was placed on a very light
>>>> but very rigid base, which was then suspended in the air by 4 or
>>>> so guy wires from overhead beams.
>>>> So the machine would be level and un-twisted because of this light
>>>> rigid base, but it would be free to swing.
>>>>
>>>> How would that affect its performance, accuracy, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> I would hazard to say that there would be no ill effects at all,
>>>> cuz of well, Newton'n'shit.....
>>>> Heh, if there were springs in the guy wires, sure would help with
>>>> building vibration, wouldnit?
>>>>
>>>> But, I was wrong once before, and it could happen again.....
>>>>
>>>> Iny thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> EA
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay. Put your safety glasses on. Stand on the platform in front of
>>> your machine. Adjust wires, springs, reductape. Go to MDI. Type in
>>> 10000 M3. Press cycle start. Type in M5. Press cycle start. HANG
>>> OOOOOOONNNNN!!!!!!!
>>
>> Better yet.
>> S10000 M3
>> M4
>> M3
>> M4
>>
>> An M8 might be a good idea at that point to hose down the released
>> bodily fluids and such.
>>
>
> LOL.
>
> OTOH, this is how new things get invented. A crazy idea, everyone
> laughs and points out the flaws, he thinks, "OK, it's gonna move, how
> can I constrain it" and the next thing you know you end up here -
> http://www.parallemic.org/
>
> Basically the same idea, with some of the more egregious bugs worked
> out.

I've had to deal with this issue my entire working life Dan.
High speed robotics is right at the core of the injection molding industry
today. It is if you want to compete anyway, and you have the same issues to
deal with in what EA is mulling over. Tool changers causing part
imperfections has been a real issue in the milling industry right along.

In the mid 90's I bought a big beam robot out of the BK of a Texas molding
company to use on a 630 ton Toshiba hydraulic press.
All I wanted was the metalwork and we stripped it completely when it
arrived. I replaced the air/oil drive with a fast pitch ball screw set that
Beaver Precision built for me and hooked it up to a pair of Fanuc's high
speed alpha series (3600 RPM) servo's.

The thing was lightning fast and worked pretty good until the vacuum chuck
was holding the twelve pound part we wanted to remove from the machine. The
vacuum wouldn't hang on to the part when the robot retracted out of the
machine. I should have stopped and though about that for a minute but what I
did instead was install a spring activated mechanical clamping system we
cobbled together. The chuck would move in and when it grabbed the part, six
fingers engaged to clamp the part from behind. I figured the part wouldn't
fall of then, and it didn't.
When the robot accelerated the part upwards I ended up with the entire mess
sitting in what was left of the discharge shute at the bottom of the machine
and a big old pile in my britches. You see, I hadn't bothered to set up the
acceleration ramping time constants on the drives, only the decel so the
servo just came on at 2000 RPM. The screws were six pitch. OOPSIE!

Anyway, I'm just poking fun at PV/EA/whatever.

The M3/M4 thing at ten percent below max RPM is something I actually do when
commissioning a machine however. Busted the 35 Kw geared head on a Formosan
machine once. Took about twenty minutes. Smoke everywhere.
Sales guy had said you could reverse the spindle all day long at 3000 RPM
when I asked him about rigid tapping.
I guess they have really short days in Formosa......
That would also explain why all of these guys think they are well hung.
Imagine what ten inches is if an entire day is 35 minutes long.
LMAO

--
John R. Carroll

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:59 pm
From: "Existential Angst"

"Jim Wilkins" <kb1dal@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:29a43015-da34-4c7f-a4f0-49525ee604eb@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 9, 6:25 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
wrote:
> ...
> Well, I didn't doubt for a minute that pendulum-like motion and rotation
> would accrue, but would it affect the machining *results* of a part?
...
> And, regarding the motion, suppose the machine were constrained at the
> coners by horizontal springs, and in the vertical by springs. Couldn't
> this
> actually *relieve* internal stresses in a machine, with no sacrifice of
> part
> accuracy?
> EA

Why not float it on a raft in a pool of coolant?

The first time you walk up next to it and punch in a rapid traverse
it's going to run you down like a rhinoceros.
===========================================

Well, mebbe like a slow rhinoceros -- or a fast turtle.

With, say, an 8,000 lb machine, and a cupla hundred pounds of table
force/acceleration,
the resulting machine acceleration would be on the order of 1/4 of a meter
per sec
per sec -- about 9"/sec^2 or 3/4 ft/sec^2 -- visavis the 32 ft/sec^2 of
falling objects.
And THEN, only for the duration of the table travel -- presumably it would
go back
again in the other direction.

But, I used the guy wires only for visual emphasis.
The real point, made in
my other replies, is whether having the machine mounted in a constrained
floating arrangement in x,y,z, on good die springs would affect accuracy.

Funny you mentioned floating -- I was once musing with someone on the
possibility of having a machine shop on a small barge -- heh..... hopefully
right offshore of a really high-quality ghetto -- Camden, Philly, etc.
Well, far enough off-shore so that I cain't hear the fukn rap music....

I figger the homeyz are not big on boating yet -- altho I do see them on the
Yonkers Hudson in their fukn skidoos.... goodgawd....
--
EA

Does AFV have a category for that?

Nice one, KG

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: National teabagger convention
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/b0e43a1a6923b01c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:16 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"John R. Carroll" wrote:
>
> Anything else you want to know, dipshit?

Dipshit? It takes you multiple attempts to reply to a single
message. Do you just 'dip' yourself in shit, or do you roll in it too?
The majority of your posts look like a ticked off third grader.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:39 pm
From: "John R. Carroll"

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" wrote:
>>
>> Anything else you want to know, dipshit?
>
>
> Dipshit? It takes you multiple attempts to reply to a single
> message. Do you just 'dip' yourself in shit, or do you roll in it
> too? The majority of your posts look like a ticked off third grader.

Perhaps I am. A lot of the drool that people try and pass off as thoughtful
conversation ought to tick anyone off, especially in light of the effect
it's had throughout our society Michael.

Differences of opinion aren't what grinds my gears. James Ryan is a friend
of mine and I see him regularly. He keeps telling me how hard it is to make
money in the oil and gas business these days. This guy is on the same
financial plane as the Pope or God himself. When oil was spotting $38.00 I
laughingly asked him if we should put him on a suicide watch or something.
For my part, I keep telling him I'd put a five dollar per gallon tax on gas
if I could. Needless to say, he doesn't think much of my idea but we've
discussed this at length and he understands where I'm coming from. We also
both use the same facts in our discussion. Neither of us tries to pull
numbers out of the air or invent anything. We have an honest dissagreement
that has never resulted in a harsh word.
We also agree on a great many things. One of those is that the Republican
party has gone right off the rails over the last 20 years and that this is a
very bad thing for everyone - even the dems - because it has resulted in a
political climate that is so partisan that the country's best interests are
now secondary.

Yep, that's a pisser all right.

--
John R. Carroll

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: A Well Regulated Militia
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/78219912fa7eecc5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:15 pm
From: "John R. Carroll"

Wes wrote:
> Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>
>> "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free
>> state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be
>> infringed."
>
>
> Regulated means in good order as in practiced and able.

Likely not Wes. This is a chain of command issue. Didn't the local militia's
keep their weapons and ammo in an Armory?
Yeah, I think they did. The heavy stuff for sure.

>Think
> regulation when it comes to a mechanical clock keeping good time.
> Don't think government alphabet agencies.

Think local school board or PTA.

>
> The security of a free state. State meaning us, the people, not
> State the despot or despot in waiting.
>
> The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
> That one is pretty clear.

Yep. It is.

>Too bad our government can't seem or
> doesn't want to understand it.

There isn't any evidence of that Wes.
What our government does also reflects the will of the people that elect it.
Every time some nut with a gun goes on a rampage, people stupidly demand
legislative action.

The same is true with other sorts of high profile crimes such as child
abductions and murders.
As far as I know it's never been legal to abduct and kill a child or anyone
else but it seems like every time that happens, Bill O'lielly goes on a
crusade for a new law, some elected official smells votes and we get another
wad of paper on the books.
It's gotten to the point that you are at risk as a parent if you spank your
kid.

> That should be a clue as to how
> things are going.
>
> To sum it up, the citizen militia meaning you and me, John Carrol,
> Ed, and Larry along with rest of the adults should be armed and
> proficient in using arms to protect us all against a government that
> denies our rights. The endorsement of armed resistance against a
> tyrannical government is what Second Amendment is all about.

No it isn't. Unless out into the context of it's time, you can't really get
a grip on the second.
Armed resistance to what was basically an occupying power is what this is
all about and as far as I know, we aren't currently occupied.

--
John R. Carroll

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:31 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:9cadnZ7cotdcydTWnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com...
> Wes wrote:
>> Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free
>>> state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be
>>> infringed."
>>
>>
>> Regulated means in good order as in practiced and able.
>
> Likely not Wes. This is a chain of command issue. Didn't the local
> militia's
> keep their weapons and ammo in an Armory?
> Yeah, I think they did. The heavy stuff for sure.
>
>>Think
>> regulation when it comes to a mechanical clock keeping good time.
>> Don't think government alphabet agencies.
>
> Think local school board or PTA.
>
>>
>> The security of a free state. State meaning us, the people, not
>> State the despot or despot in waiting.
>>
>> The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
>> That one is pretty clear.
>
> Yep. It is.
>
>
>>Too bad our government can't seem or
>> doesn't want to understand it.
>
> There isn't any evidence of that Wes.
> What our government does also reflects the will of the people that elect
> it.
> Every time some nut with a gun goes on a rampage, people stupidly demand
> legislative action.
>
> The same is true with other sorts of high profile crimes such as child
> abductions and murders.
> As far as I know it's never been legal to abduct and kill a child or
> anyone
> else but it seems like every time that happens, Bill O'lielly goes on a
> crusade for a new law, some elected official smells votes and we get
> another
> wad of paper on the books.
> It's gotten to the point that you are at risk as a parent if you spank
> your
> kid.
>
>> That should be a clue as to how
>> things are going.
>>
>> To sum it up, the citizen militia meaning you and me, John Carrol,
>> Ed, and Larry along with rest of the adults should be armed and
>> proficient in using arms to protect us all against a government that
>> denies our rights. The endorsement of armed resistance against a
>> tyrannical government is what Second Amendment is all about.
>
> No it isn't. Unless out into the context of it's time, you can't really
> get
> a grip on the second.
> Armed resistance to what was basically an occupying power is what this is
> all about and as far as I know, we aren't currently occupied.

That's exactly right. The "armed resistance against a tyrannical government"
business is a myth, as George Washington demonstrated when he marched 16,000
federalized militiamen into western PA to put down the Whiskey Rebellion.

And people often don't read Jefferson's "Tree of Liberty" letter very
carefully. Jefferson wasn't *advocating* armed action against the
government. He thought it could be motivated by good spirit but that it
essentially was a mistake on the part of the rebels. "The people cannot be
all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in
proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive....Let them take
arms," said Jefferson. "The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon
& pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two?"

The business about "setting them right...," then pardoning and pacifying
them, tends to be forgotten. But that's exactly what Washington did in
western PA.

--
Ed Huntress

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:32 pm
From: jbslocum@gmail.com

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 17:11:07 -0800, Hawke
<davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote:

>>
>>>>> Well thought out! We all know that there are no simple issues
>>>>> involving
>>>>> firearms.
>>>>
>>>> Now hold on there just a galdarn minute. How many times have you
>>>> claimed that everybody who disagrees with your crackpot ravings is a
>>>> leftist receiving "cheese checks"? And didn't you consider Hawke one
>>>> of those leftists right up until he said something about guns that you
>>>> agreed with? Is he now immune from being called a leftist? Will his
>>>> cheese checks now cease? Keeerist.
>>>
>>> Except that Hawke is still a leftist and it wasn't even an original
>>> thought. Doubtful that he even read any of Machiavelli's works. A
>>> simple Google search of the term "Machiavelli well regulated militia"
>>> reveals where Hawke plagiarized his "original" thought from. Besides,
>>> anyone ho knows anything about Machiavelli is aware that he only wrote
>>> in Italian.
>>
>> Hawke is way out there on most things. On firearms, we usually agree.
>
>
>Just thought you might want to know where I got the Machiavelli quote.
>It came from a book I just finished reading titled A History of Warfare
>by John Keegan. It's a direct quote from that book. You may disagree
>with me on just about everything but do know that what I say is
>accurate. I don't just throw shit around for the hell of it like some
>people around here. Also, as someone who is financially conservative,
>pro guns, and anti immigration, I think the label "leftist" is not what
>I am. I have too many disagreements with true leftists. I know real
>leftists and I argue with them all the time and think their views on
>lots of things are out to lunch. The problem is that people who are
>politically far to the right think anyone who disagrees with them is
>a leftist. But when you are way out in right field everyone looks to be
>to the left.
>
>One last thing, as a political scientist I had to read Machiavelli, and
>to those who are too unaware to know it, his works have been translated
>into English.
>
>Hawke

A citizen of the United States, who is not an "American Indian", as
they were known for a few hundred years, who is anti immigration, is a
sort of a contradiction, aren't they?

Regards,

J.B.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My t-shirt .....
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/97ab214ac1ecbf57?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:38 pm
From: Deucalion

On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:32:28 -0600, "Alfred Pennyworth"
<Alfred@waynemansion.bs> wrote:

>
>
>"Deucalion" <someone@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>news:61qak5pde5vehp8d8n874ivecbpehbhftp@4ax.com...
>>
>> I need a new design for my t-shirt, any suggestions?
>
>
>http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-50863389838911_2085_61699593

Did you make up the post that you replied to? It doesn't really
matter since you have been filtered. I figure either someone is
forging my posts or you're an idiot. Probably both.

I won't see it either way.

Goodbye.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can a big mill do small parts?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/bbced968b8b761cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:46 pm
From: TwoGuns

I recently sold my small lathe (7"x12") and a mini-mill. I have a
couple prototypes I need to whip out for a project I am working on. I
will need to machine some parts as small as 1/2" and several pieces of
12" x 12' x15". Obviously it would be impossible to do a large job on
a small mill. However is a large mill capable of doing small jobs with
accuracy?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:10 pm
From: Don Foreman

On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:46:41 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
<R-D-Lorance@neb.rr.com> wrote:

>I recently sold my small lathe (7"x12") and a mini-mill. I have a
>couple prototypes I need to whip out for a project I am working on. I
>will need to machine some parts as small as 1/2" and several pieces of
>12" x 12' x15". Obviously it would be impossible to do a large job on
>a small mill. However is a large mill capable of doing small jobs with
>accuracy?
>
>DL

It can make parts of any size to whatever accuracy it's capable of in
small regions, which is almost certainly better than the accuracy
it's capable of over full travel range.

I routinely make parts considerably smaller than 1/2" on my
Bridgeport, and on my 15" lathe.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 0.3 IPM
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f7ca0615bd481b5e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 8:50 pm
From: "Bob La Londe"

"Wild_Bill" <wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:r1c2n.49314$IU1.3827@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com...
> I suspect that my first attempt would have been a HSS slitting saw,
> cutting lubricant and an arbor with a larger diameter.
>
> If that proved to be too slow, going at the part with an angle grinder
> would have removed a lot of material quickly, but with relatively low
> precision.
>
> Having heavy duty parts holding accessories attached to an extruded
> aluminum table could present some prolems with damaging t-slots or other
> issues.

So you hold parts on with chewing gum and rubber bands? LOL. I've already
gotten the stock lecture about using gorilla strength to tighten screws.
That vise will be less likely to damage the table or slip because of its
large mating surface area than a smaller clamp would. Neither the spindle
nor the stepper motors are strong enough to do any damage or even move the
vise if its only just down snugged down. It can bend or break a small
cutter, but if something bigger binds up it just stops. Now the vise I am
making on the other hand... Actually its just so I can get a little more
working depth on the Z axis, and be able to clamp a piece the working length
of the X axis. After I have it fit and working I'll cut it down and make
two or three sets of jaws for it for different applications.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Neat metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c120db105d627e78?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:05 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"dan" <notme@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:4b4943df.6641560@news20.forteinc.com...
> What's that Lassie? You say that Ed Huntress fell down the old
> rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
> by Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:54:28 -0500:
>
>>> http://acidcow.com/pics/6367-the-most-beautiful-smith-in-the-world-32-pics.html
>>
>>Wow, that's a lot of gas cutting. The work looks like it must have taken
>>20
>>years to accomplish -- which means she must have started at age 4. <g>
>>
>>Very impressive, beautifully styled work.
>
> She has a web site that lists her education and other stuff:
> http://www.callane.com
> --
>
> Dan H.
> northshore MA.

A very interesting woman. She looks a lot younger than 41, unless those
photos were taken years ago.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kinda on-topic: Shoes for Metal Roofs
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fc18d5322feea788?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:13 pm
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Jan 9, 1:08 pm, Brian Lawson <laws...@ciaccess.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 13:17:02 -0600, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com>
> wrote:
>
> >So, every roof on the property is now metal. Our house roof is the
> >raised metal-tab stuff, and when it gets the least bit wet it's slicker
> >than snot -- to the point where we've already had a family member fall
> >off and injure himself (not badly, but still a good warning).
>
> >My New Balance tenny runners don't grip it when it's wet, I can just
> >barely keep traction by sitting down on it in jeans -- and denim usually
> >grips metal roofs pretty well.
>
> >So, are there any trick shoes, or shoe attachements, that one can wear to
> >keep from falling and breaking one's neck? Any of them that don't cost
> >an arm and a leg, yet still really work?
>
> >TIA
>
> Hey Tim,
>
> Not real sure why you want to wander around on the roof, but "deck
> shoes" for yachting have a pretty neat tread. They work pretty well
> on wet fibreglas/gel-coat. Try West Marine store or similar.
>
> Take care.
>
> Brian Lawson,
> Bothwell, Ontario

I've an old pair I use when having to get up there on the metal
carport roof and the house roof(shingles). I've been up there when
it's been wet, works for both, the carport doesn't have that great a
slope though it does have pine needles on it.
Wally world carries them for about $6 a pair, not this time of year,
though. Work reasonably well on wet ice, like today. In the 40s, ice
is melting all over, but still have to walk on it. Just don't get
into mud or you'll be tracking it everywhere. Those tread slits pick
up small gravel, too. Slip them off before stepping on polished
floors.

Stan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tapping Head ???
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/dda16a7faed2d49a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:17 pm
From: "DoN. Nichols"

On 2010-01-10, Doug White <gwhite@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Wes <clutch@lycos.com> wrote in
> news:hW82n.30933$H15.27489@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com:
>
>> steamer <steamer@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> --They totally rock. I recommend Tapmatic; we've got several and

[ ... ]

> For a home shop with a smallish mill (Clausing 8520), could someone in
> the know help recommend a specific Tapmatic model?. I've been thinking
> about getting one for a while, but I'm unclear on the practical
> differences between the Rx, TC/DC & X models. I'd be looking at a size
> 30, and all models seem to be about the same length. The TC/DC has an
> "adjustable self-feed", which the others don't, but I have no idea what
> that means. The TC/DC also has "adjustable depth control for blind
> holes", which sounds useful.
>
> Should I be looking for a TC/DC, or are the others just as good? I'm
> looking for maximum flexibility & idiot-proofness.

O.K. I would have to dig up the listing of what is what to be
sure. (Or -- go downstairs to a far too cold shop far too late in the
day. :-)

But the features on the two which I have (one a 30 size and one
a 50 for larger taps) have the following differences which I consider
important:

1) The smaller one (I think a 30X, but I am not sure) has a collar
at the top which sets a torque limit. The advice for using it
is to start with it set to the lowest torque, and put a brand
new tap in the head, and try tapping the workpiece material and
size which you are using. Keep increasing the torque setting
until it goes through with no trouble -- and adjust it just a
tiny bit higher.

Now -- keep tapping using these settings until it starts to slip
again. At this point, the thing to do is to remove and discard
the tap which you are using, and install another brand new one.

This, obviously, is for production, and is the best way to avoid
broken taps.

2) The larger one does not have the torque limit, but has an
adjustable collar on the tap chuck which sets how far the chuck
has to travel before the dog clutch releases and the tap is free
from the spindle. This is important when you are tapping
shallow blind holes. You need to have the tap head set so the
dog clutch will release from a starting point where the tap just
touches the workpiece (so it *can* self start) and yet can
release before touching the bottom of the hole. You need to set
the drill press or mill spindle stop so the dog clutch will
release before the tap jams against the bottom of a blind hole.
And you need to adjust the collar to start the tap reliably.
Normally, there is quite a bit of free feed before the dog
clutch disengages and stops the tap from turning. This is fine
with through holes, but is a problem with blind holes. Note
that this larger one does not have the torque limit, but it
handles taps from 1/4" (IIRC) up to 1/2", which are harder to
break in the drill press. (It would still be nice to have that
torque limit to set for the tap which I am using. :-)

Now -- the "adjustable self feed" may be for tapping in a CNC
mill which does not have spindle thread feed capability, so once it
starts to cut, it pulls the tap down as needed, and your CNC counts the
turns of the spindle and then stops and reverses it. (This may not have
a reversing gear inside it the way the two which I have are set up,
depending on the CNC to reverse the spindle instead.

Essentially -- you need to download and read the manuals for
each to see what it is intended to work with. Mine are for manual Mills
and drill presses. Others only work on CNC mills, or something like an
automatic screw machine (lathe), so you need to get the right one for
what *you* will be using it with. Unless you have the CNC mill with the
right spindle programming, you probably don't want the "adjustable self
feed" version. And you certainly don't want a "rigid tap holder" (which
is probably a lot less expensive).

And -- remember that the 30 series can only go up to 1/4" (or
some only to #10 screws) -- and the torque limit is assuming thread
cutting taps, not thread forming taps which need more torque, so you may
not be able to use them up to the full size of the tapping head's
claimed range.)

But -- my larger one was really nice when I had about 40 1-4/20
holes to tap in 1/4" thick mild steel. The main trick was modifying the
drillpress table to hold the length of the workpiece. I did that with
two 2x4s secured from below by lag screws through the slots in the
table. And I was always careful to clamp it down with a Kant-Twist for
each new hole -- and position the stock so if the Kant-Twist slipped,
the column would keep the workpiece from rotating.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Serious press fit
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d1a444f85cb0de51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:27 pm
From: Joe Pfeiffer

Wes <clutch@lycos.com> writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
>>My 2000 Intrepid
>>and 2007 Dakota are immeasurably better.
>
>
> Is that the Intrepid where your spark plug wires are run under the
> intake manifold? I seem to remember a cow-orker bitching about that.

Yes, and I've seen other people complain they're impossible. The thing
is, the car uses coil-on-plug ignition, so I have yet to need to replace
them. We'll see when the time comes....

(I'll just note that on the Toyota I complained about recently, access
to the PCV valve is blocked by the intake manifold plenum, and over a
dozen hoses are bolted to the underside of that plenum)
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

==============================================================================

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Saturday, January 9, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

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