twitter: comp.lang.python - 23 new messages in 19 topics

comp.lang.python
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python?hl=en

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Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Web Design Mastery - Professional Web Site Design Made Easy !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/f790158badaffe7c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:53 pm
From: xmanclick4

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:54 pm
From: xmanclick4

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:55 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Simple Php !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/3a96ff09ebcd209b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:56 pm
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TOPIC: Press Release Script !!!
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:57 pm
From: xmanclick4

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:58 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Podnutz Official Laptop Repair Videos !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/5e081745c4389b1a?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:59 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: PC Secrets !!!
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:00 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Multi Profit Websites !!!
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:01 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Make Money With IPhone Apps!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/91f4f25c070e41e0?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:03 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Learn Photoshop In Just 2 Hours !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/5caac47887ad1f7b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:03 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Learn Photoshop Elements In Under 2 Hours !!!
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:04 pm
From: xmanclick4

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TOPIC: Get 50k In Funding - Regardless Of Your Situation!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/1c46f2bb3a56bc13?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:05 pm
From: xmanclick4

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Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:05 pm
From: xmanclick4

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Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:08 pm
From: xmanclick1

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http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/74795606707e7f72?hl=en
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Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:10 pm
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TOPIC: Computer Secrets Unleashed! 2009 !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/39c275d2df51733a?hl=en
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Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:11 pm
From: xmanclick1

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TOPIC: Build A Coupon Site !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/167004ac27ad22c3?hl=en
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Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:12 pm
From: xmanclick1

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TOPIC: A Revolutionary Web Design Course - Become Your Own Webmaster(TM) !!!
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Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:13 pm
From: xmanclick1

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Modifying Class Object
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/t/fd36962c4970ac48?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:21 pm
From: Steven D'Aprano

On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:33:50 -0800, Steve Howell wrote:

> You seem to be missing the point that "curly braces" is a concrete
> term that very specifically applies to spelling.

And you seem to be missing the point that "pointer" is also a concrete
term that very specifically applies to, well, pointers.

[...]
> I agree that "reference" is a much better term than "pointer.". It has
> the right amount of generalness in my opinion. I think "violence" is a
> bit overstated, but your bigger point is well taken and it seems like
> "reference" is useful middle ground between pure cpython language and
> misrepresentative analogy.

But reference also has a concrete meaning: C++ has a type explicitly
called "reference":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_(C++)

And of course call-by-reference (or pass-by-reference) has a specific,
technical meaning.

--
Steven

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:40 pm
From: "Alf P. Steinbach"

* Steven D'Aprano:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:33:50 -0800, Steve Howell wrote:
>
>> You seem to be missing the point that "curly braces" is a concrete
>> term that very specifically applies to spelling.
>
> And you seem to be missing the point that "pointer" is also a concrete
> term that very specifically applies to, well, pointers.
>
> [...]
>> I agree that "reference" is a much better term than "pointer.". It has
>> the right amount of generalness in my opinion. I think "violence" is a
>> bit overstated, but your bigger point is well taken and it seems like
>> "reference" is useful middle ground between pure cpython language and
>> misrepresentative analogy.
>
> But reference also has a concrete meaning: C++ has a type explicitly
> called "reference":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_(C++)
>
> And of course call-by-reference (or pass-by-reference) has a specific,
> technical meaning.

Hm.

Consider your argument about "reference" being possible to confuse with "pass by
reference" in the light of "pass by name", used by Algol, <url:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_Device>.

Oops, to consistently remove all possible ambiguity the term "name" can't be
used about formal arguments.

I think, even though "pass by name" is much less well known than "pass by
reference", this indicates that it's not practically possible to remove all
possible ambiguity.

I think some Common Sense(TM) must in any case be assumed, and applied.

Cheers,

- Alf

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 11:45 pm
From: Steve Howell

On Feb 13, 11:21 pm, Steven D'Aprano <st...@REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:33:50 -0800, Steve Howell wrote:
> > You seem to be missing the point that "curly braces" is a concrete
> > term that very specifically applies to spelling.
>
> And you seem to be missing the point that "pointer" is also a concrete
> term that very specifically applies to, well, pointers.
>

The term "pointer" is very abstract. Please give me a concrete
definition of a pointer.

A curly brace is one of these: { }

Pretty concrete, I hope.

> [...]
>
> > I agree that "reference" is a much better term than "pointer.". It has
> > the right amount of generalness in my opinion. I think "violence" is a
> > bit overstated, but your bigger point is well taken and it seems like
> > "reference" is useful middle ground between pure cpython language and
> > misrepresentative analogy.
>
> But reference also has a concrete meaning: C++ has a type explicitly
> called "reference":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_(C++)
>

Of course, "reference" has concrete meanings in specific contexts.
But I can refer you to much more general and abstract uses of the term
"reference." Do you want references? I will be happy to refer you
to appropriate references.

> And of course call-by-reference (or pass-by-reference) has a specific,
> technical meaning.
>

Which is what?

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 14 2010 12:15 am
From: Steve Howell

On Feb 10, 6:16 am, Steven D'Aprano <st...@REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:
>
> Alf, although your English in this forum has been excellent so far, I
> understand you are Norwegian, so it is possible that you aren't a native
> English speaker and possibly unaware that quotation marks are sometimes
> ambiguous in English.
>
> While it is true that quoted text is officially meant to indicate a
> direct quote, it is also commonly used in informal text to indicate a
> paraphrase. (There are other uses as well, but they don't concern us now.)
>
> Unfortunately, this means that in informal discussions like this it is
> sometimes difficult to distinguish a direct quote from a paraphrase,
> except by context. In context, as a native speaker, I can assure you that
> Stephen Hansen's use of quotation marks is a paraphrase and not meant to
> be read as a direct quote.

As another native speaker of English, I can assure Alf that using
quotation marks in a paraphrase in written English is actually
strictly admonished against in some English speaking countries. At
least according to my English teachers. To the extent that many
people on the Internet don't speak English natively, I think the most
conservative and reasonable convention applies--use quotes to quote
directly; if you're not quoting directly, omit quotes and make clear
the fact that you are paraphrasing.

Which isn't to say we don't all make mistakes.

I have no idea about what Stephen Hanson said. Most misattributions
are actually paraphrases, whether they be in quotes or not.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010

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