twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 13 topics

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CNC Bridgeport with Heidenhein control
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/5812568ce8efba7d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:37 am
From: "Pete C."

Ignoramus21067 wrote:
>
> On 2010-02-24, Bob La Londe <nospam@nospam.no> wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Ignoramus21067" <ignoramus21067@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:T7SdnQLrNM4OrRnWnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> >> Someone is offering me a Bridgeport Series II Interact CNC mill. He
> >> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
> >> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
> >>
> >> The price is $500.
> >
> >
> > Heck if if the CNC is totally dead you can completely retrofit it to run
> > with Mach 3 for 500 with new motors even and add a cheap PC.
> >
> > $500 for a big mill sounds pretty cheap whether any of the CNC is good or
> > not.
> >
>
> I need to do a lot of reading about CNC in short order so that I can
> understand all the terminology, such as double loop, etc.
>
> If anyone can suggest an intro book into this, I would greatly
> appreciate and buy it immediately.
>
> Here's a guy who converted the same exact mill to EMC2
>
> http://machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
>
> i

Load up and run EMC2 or Mach3 in demo mode with no machine. I use Mach3,
mostly because it was ready for prime time before EMC2 was. When I
started with CNC I tried EMC (EMC2 wasn't out then) and Mach3 side by
side on identical PCs controlling the same machine (at different times)
and chose Mach3 as the more polished solution. EMC2 should be more on
par with Mach3, but I haven't tried it since I already have Mach3 and
the hobby license is unlimited.

CNC controls are a *lot* simpler than you might think, and a little
fiddling and you should have it figured out very quickly. The G code
that CNC controllers operate on is nothing more than simple positioning
commands for the most part. Where is gets complicated is in the CAD/CAM
end and generating code for full 3D work, and you really don't need to
get fully into that for hobby work. Most hobby work tends to be 2.5D,
not full 3D and that makes it quite a bit simpler. Look at SheetCAM for
an example of a decent 2.5D CAM package.

For hobby work, you'll find that the few things you really need 3D moves
for are usually ones that are easy enough to hand code. There are
specific G code commands for arcs and stuff which are useful if you're
hand coding, but they aren't typically used by CAM programs which mostly
generate the code as line segments since code length isn't a concern on
an modern CNC control.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:39 am
From: Ignoramus26960

On 2010-02-24, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ignoramus21067 wrote:
>> On 2010-02-23, Ed Huntress <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> "Karl Townsend" <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4b843f25$0$65856$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
>>>> Iggy,
>>>>
>>>> Refitting CNC machines has become my real hobby. I also make a few bucks
>>>> on the side consulting on Camsoft refit installs.
>>>>
>>>> $500 is a fair price. The machine is only sutiable for a refit. Don't beat
>>>> a dead horse trying to make the old control run.
>>>>
>>>> I assume you're just buying on speculation. But, if you're going into the
>>>> refit biz, email me offline.
>>>>
>>>> Karl
>>> Karl, since Heidenhein switched to PC-architecture controls around ten years
>>> ago (or offered them as an option), what is the chance that they could
>>> supply the necessary bits to convert Iggy's machine into one that's
>>> PC-controlled?
>>>
>>
>> To put this bluntly, if I can convert this mill to something I can
>> control with a (preferably Linux) PC, I will keep this mill.
>>
>> I do not know even the basics of CNC, so I do not know what interfaces
>> with what and what can be replaced.
>>
>> Is that a 2 dimensional CNC machine? (I know that it is a dumb idea to
>> ask at this point in the game).
>
> Did it not come with a controller, Iggy?
>

I have not brought it home yet, but it does come with a controller
and, if I am to believe the seller, the only thing wrong is the
display that has a bad transformer (which is something weird and
cannot be replaced).

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:41 am
From: Ignoramus26960

On 2010-02-24, RogerN <regor@midwest.net> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus21067" <ignoramus21067@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
> news:NuednbZPU-8gIBnWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> On 2010-02-24, Bob La Londe <nospam@nospam.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ignoramus21067" <ignoramus21067@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:T7SdnQLrNM4OrRnWnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> Someone is offering me a Bridgeport Series II Interact CNC mill. He
>>>> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
>>>> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
>>>>
>>>> The price is $500.
>>>
>>>
>>> Heck if if the CNC is totally dead you can completely retrofit it to run
>>> with Mach 3 for 500 with new motors even and add a cheap PC.
>>>
>>> $500 for a big mill sounds pretty cheap whether any of the CNC is good or
>>> not.
>>>
>>
>> I need to do a lot of reading about CNC in short order so that I can
>> understand all the terminology, such as double loop, etc.
>>
>> If anyone can suggest an intro book into this, I would greatly
>> appreciate and buy it immediately.
>>
>> Here's a guy who converted the same exact mill to EMC2
>>
>> http://machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
>>
>> i
>
> You remember when you made printouts of coordinates and then turned the
> handles to those positions to make shapes? That is what CNC control does,
> but it will do it on all 3 motors at around 1000 times per second depending
> on controls. The double loop, for example, is when the control gets a
> feedback from the motor and also gets feedback from the scales on the axis.
> The motor feedback is used to sense what the motor is doing, the linear
> scales sense the actual table position. These could be the same but if your
> ball screws get a tiny amount of backlash, the motor will try to make up for
> it.
>
> The servo motor gets power to run forward or backward and has something to
> sense turning so it can be controlled, usually through a Proportional,
> Integral, Derivative (PID) control loop.
>
> My system uses motor feedback to the motor amplifiers and uses encoder or
> scale feedback to the CNC control. So, if my position is off a move is
> required, my control will send out a signal to tell the drive to move the
> motor at a speed and direction. The amp will send power to the motor and
> sense the motors movement, as the position error is smaller, the controller
> sends a smaller signal until the motor stops at the correct position.

OK, I think that I understand that. I will look for some webpage that
described architecture of a CNC system. I already have all the manuals
in my possession.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:46 am
From: Ignoramus26960

On 2010-02-24, Pete C. <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote:
> Load up and run EMC2 or Mach3 in demo mode with no machine. I use Mach3,
> mostly because it was ready for prime time before EMC2 was. When I
> started with CNC I tried EMC (EMC2 wasn't out then) and Mach3 side by
> side on identical PCs controlling the same machine (at different times)
> and chose Mach3 as the more polished solution. EMC2 should be more on
> par with Mach3, but I haven't tried it since I already have Mach3 and
> the hobby license is unlimited.
>
> CNC controls are a *lot* simpler than you might think, and a little
> fiddling and you should have it figured out very quickly. The G code
> that CNC controllers operate on is nothing more than simple positioning
> commands for the most part. Where is gets complicated is in the CAD/CAM
> end and generating code for full 3D work, and you really don't need to
> get fully into that for hobby work. Most hobby work tends to be 2.5D,
> not full 3D and that makes it quite a bit simpler. Look at SheetCAM for
> an example of a decent 2.5D CAM package.
>
> For hobby work, you'll find that the few things you really need 3D moves
> for are usually ones that are easy enough to hand code. There are
> specific G code commands for arcs and stuff which are useful if you're
> hand coding, but they aren't typically used by CAM programs which mostly
> generate the code as line segments since code length isn't a concern on
> an modern CNC control.

Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:52 am
From: Ignoramus26960

On 2010-02-24, Karl Townsend <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Long story short, don't go in to this thinking its a quick easy job.
>>> You'll
>>> also spend a fair bit of bucks on servo drivers that work with EMC and
>>> run
>>> your servos.
>>
>> Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
>> it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> The major cost here will be your time. A lot to learn. My pure guess would
> be about two man months. The more equipment you can reuse the more you save
> and the more time you'll spend. Its easier to do a simple machine first,
> this one isn't it. Look in to how you do the servo drives with the
> Heidenhein scales and what all you'll need to interface all the I/O to your
> Linux box. These will be the two largest costs.
>
> You'll end up with a machine you control from a computer keyboard - fine for
> hobby work. Most of my experience is with refitting a machine so its a
> professional job that is better than new. Costs easily run 15K to do this.
>

So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:11 am
From: "Pete C."

Ignoramus26960 wrote:
>
> On 2010-02-24, Pete C. <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote:
> > Load up and run EMC2 or Mach3 in demo mode with no machine. I use Mach3,
> > mostly because it was ready for prime time before EMC2 was. When I
> > started with CNC I tried EMC (EMC2 wasn't out then) and Mach3 side by
> > side on identical PCs controlling the same machine (at different times)
> > and chose Mach3 as the more polished solution. EMC2 should be more on
> > par with Mach3, but I haven't tried it since I already have Mach3 and
> > the hobby license is unlimited.
> >
> > CNC controls are a *lot* simpler than you might think, and a little
> > fiddling and you should have it figured out very quickly. The G code
> > that CNC controllers operate on is nothing more than simple positioning
> > commands for the most part. Where is gets complicated is in the CAD/CAM
> > end and generating code for full 3D work, and you really don't need to
> > get fully into that for hobby work. Most hobby work tends to be 2.5D,
> > not full 3D and that makes it quite a bit simpler. Look at SheetCAM for
> > an example of a decent 2.5D CAM package.
> >
> > For hobby work, you'll find that the few things you really need 3D moves
> > for are usually ones that are easy enough to hand code. There are
> > specific G code commands for arcs and stuff which are useful if you're
> > hand coding, but they aren't typically used by CAM programs which mostly
> > generate the code as line segments since code length isn't a concern on
> > an modern CNC control.
>
> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
> mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
> arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
> want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
>
> i

Two "manual" functions:

MDI - Manual data input, basically a CLI interface to the G code
interpreter. You just enter a single G code command at a time like "G01
X4.5 Y3.7 F150" which moves to the specified X and Y position at the
specified 150 IPM feed rate.

Jog wheel - You can manually move one axis at a time using the jog wheel
and you can set the jog steps to increments like 1", .1", .01", .001".

Once you get familiar with G code, jog will only be used for "touch off"
functions to establish your zero, and then you'll use MDI input for
anything manual, or just pop up a text editor and write a quick chuck of
G code then load and run it.

I haven't looked at the EMC2 docs, but I know there is a decent G code
reference section in the Mach3 docs you could download and look at. G
code is a standard, so it's pretty much the same for any control (they
do have custom extensions on some).

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:13 am
From: "Pete C."

Ignoramus26960 wrote:
>
> On 2010-02-24, Karl Townsend <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Long story short, don't go in to this thinking its a quick easy job.
> >>> You'll
> >>> also spend a fair bit of bucks on servo drivers that work with EMC and
> >>> run
> >>> your servos.
> >>
> >> Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
> >> it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > The major cost here will be your time. A lot to learn. My pure guess would
> > be about two man months. The more equipment you can reuse the more you save
> > and the more time you'll spend. Its easier to do a simple machine first,
> > this one isn't it. Look in to how you do the servo drives with the
> > Heidenhein scales and what all you'll need to interface all the I/O to your
> > Linux box. These will be the two largest costs.
> >
> > You'll end up with a machine you control from a computer keyboard - fine for
> > hobby work. Most of my experience is with refitting a machine so its a
> > professional job that is better than new. Costs easily run 15K to do this.
> >
>
> So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
>
> i

My recommendation would be to use the existing controls if it's a simple
thing like replacing a monitor. Then investigate those controls to see
if the servo drives and encoders would be reusable and plan the EMC2 or
Mach3 retrofit while you use the current controls. When the current
controls finally die and can't be repaired you'll be ready for the
retrofit.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nam Vet Epic Beard Man vs. Tyronne: AC Transit Bus Fight
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9457a232b7160191?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:41 am
From: Mark Rand

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:06:46 -0800 (PST), Dave__67 <spamTHISbrp@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Feb 23, 2:26 am, Don Foreman <dfore...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:19:04 -0500, dav1936...@nowhere.invalid wrote:
>> >(re: recent thread on respect for vets)
>>
>> >Oh dayummm......
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZf39fzu1Q4
>>
>> >better call the amber-lamps.
>>
>> >Hitler comments:
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTxcNzz4PMI
>>
>> >Dave
>>
>> The older fella clearly retreated rather than engage. The younger
>> aggressor pursued and attacked. He's probably lucky to be alive.
>>
>> Everyone knows that seniors are fragile. Any violent physical attack
>> must therefore be construed by them as deadly threat and dealt with
>> accordingly if possible. Old vets aren't as strong and quick as young
>> men, but combat skills and experience aren't totally forgotten when
>> hair turns gray or disappears altogether. Most vets hated every
>> horrible day of combat but the survivors became competent at it. They
>> do not regard a fight as recreation or sport but as an activity to be
>> avoided if at all possible. Most of them are not easy to provoke. They
>> know that if attacked they must stop/drop their attacker before they
>> are greviously or fatally harmed, and that things can get legally
>> messy after successful self defense because many Americans revile the
>> veterans that did battle by command of the politicans those Americans
>> elected.
>
>Well, not quite. When the 'youth' went back to his seat, the old
>fellar egged him on one last time.
>
>The old dude is somewhat well known in that area for picking fights.
>But, if someone crosses the line from shouts to violence, getting
>'egged on' is no defense- old guy lured him in, but he took a swing at
>the old guy and got his ass handed to him, which is OK by me.
>
>He's a tough bastard, gotta give him that.
>
>
>Dave

He used threatening and insulting language to provoke a fight and then
proceeded to commit grievous bodily harm. Five years is the tariff for that.
(in civilized parts of the world)

Mark Rand
RTFM

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:37 am
From: Ignoramus26960

My take on the story is as follows:

The white guy is big (much bigger than the black guy), and an
experienced fighter.

The white guy took an accomplice along to record a video, so he
intended something worth of a video to happen.

The white guy picks a small black guy, insults him, then puts a show
for the video camera about how he did not mean what he meant, further
incensing the black guy but making a false impression that an insult
was unintentional.

The white guy taunts the black guy some more and retreats.

Black guy is angry, follows him, slaps the white guy in a manner that
left NO mark on his face (so he hit him lightly, if at all), and then
gets severely beaten up.

Does the white man deserve much sympathy here?

Not from me.

He intended to produce a show to post on the internet, succeeded at
that, at the cost of serious injuries to the black bus rider who did
not expect any trouble when he got on the bus.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Al Outboard engine - clearing out waterways
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/56204a998b560a20?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:51 am
From: "Bob La Londe"

"Bruce" <bruceinbangkok@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:tn7ao5lmgmrtna9qndlnt5an1d58q0c431@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:24:47 -0600, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Charlie+ wrote:
>>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:09:27 -0700, "Bob La Londe" <nospam@nospam.no>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sitting for several years?
>>>>
>>>> Always replace the impellor for an outboard every two years max if its
>>>> in
>>>> use, each year if its operated in a river system or other gritty
>>>> environment, and any time its been sitting for an extended period.
>>>>
>>>> Its possible a lean condition may make it run a little hot from a
>>>> gummed up
>>>> carb, but I can guarantee you when you take out the impellor you will
>>>> find
>>>> its taken a curved set or is even starting to break down or crack.
>>>> Impellors are relatively cheap, and dirt cheap compared to the cost of
>>>> a new
>>>> or even good used outboard.
>>>>
>>>> Also, when was the last time you changed the gearcase lubricant? You
>>>> should
>>>> do that every year, or everytime its been sitting for an extended
>>>> period.
>>>> Also relatively cheap and dirt cheap compared to replacing or
>>>> rebuilding
>>>> your lower unit.
>>>>
>>> OK thanks all - ill start with the impeller!
>>> Charlie+
>>
>>
>>
>>you know... that's a lot easier said that done.
>>(not the impeller, but the gearbox oil)
>>
>>Never the less, It's on my list - if the spring thaws ever come...
>
> Actually it is pretty easy... with the right gear. The easy way is to
> buy the gear oil in one of those "toothpaste" tubes. Take out the two
> plugs and let the old stuff drain out then jam the nozzle of the oil
> tube in the lower hole and squeeze. When oil comes out the top screw
> the plug in. Then take the tube out of the bottom hole - the oil won't
> leak out - and screw in the plug. Almost quicker to do then to tell.
>

I use a pump, but basically the same thing.

1. Place bucket under unit.
2. Pull bottom plug.
3. Pull top plug.
a. Inspect oil draining from unit for metal particles and color
b. If brown you have water in oil, plan on a seal kit.
c. If any metal particles larger than tiny slivers, plan on a
complete rebuild soon.
4. Pump oil in bottom hole until it comes out top hole.
5. Replace plug in top hole.
6. Remove pump.
7. Place plug in bottom hole.

It's a really good idea to replace the gaskets on both plugs.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:23 am
From: cavelamb

Bob La Londe wrote:
>
>
> "Bruce" <bruceinbangkok@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:tn7ao5lmgmrtna9qndlnt5an1d58q0c431@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:24:47 -0600, cavelamb <cavelamb@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie+ wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:09:27 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
>>>> <nospam@nospam.no> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sitting for several years?
>>>>>
>>>>> Always replace the impellor for an outboard every two years max if
>>>>> its in
>>>>> use, each year if its operated in a river system or other gritty
>>>>> environment, and any time its been sitting for an extended period.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its possible a lean condition may make it run a little hot from a
>>>>> gummed up
>>>>> carb, but I can guarantee you when you take out the impellor you
>>>>> will find
>>>>> its taken a curved set or is even starting to break down or crack.
>>>>> Impellors are relatively cheap, and dirt cheap compared to the cost
>>>>> of a new
>>>>> or even good used outboard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, when was the last time you changed the gearcase lubricant?
>>>>> You should
>>>>> do that every year, or everytime its been sitting for an extended
>>>>> period.
>>>>> Also relatively cheap and dirt cheap compared to replacing or
>>>>> rebuilding
>>>>> your lower unit.
>>>>>
>>>> OK thanks all - ill start with the impeller!
>>>> Charlie+
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you know... that's a lot easier said that done.
>>> (not the impeller, but the gearbox oil)
>>>
>>> Never the less, It's on my list - if the spring thaws ever come...
>>
>> Actually it is pretty easy... with the right gear. The easy way is to
>> buy the gear oil in one of those "toothpaste" tubes. Take out the two
>> plugs and let the old stuff drain out then jam the nozzle of the oil
>> tube in the lower hole and squeeze. When oil comes out the top screw
>> the plug in. Then take the tube out of the bottom hole - the oil won't
>> leak out - and screw in the plug. Almost quicker to do then to tell.
>>
>
> I use a pump, but basically the same thing.
>
> 1. Place bucket under unit.
> 2. Pull bottom plug.
> 3. Pull top plug.
> a. Inspect oil draining from unit for metal particles and color
> b. If brown you have water in oil, plan on a seal kit.
> c. If any metal particles larger than tiny slivers, plan on a
> complete rebuild soon.
> 4. Pump oil in bottom hole until it comes out top hole.
> 5. Replace plug in top hole.
> 6. Remove pump.
> 7. Place plug in bottom hole.
>
> It's a really good idea to replace the gaskets on both plugs.
>
>

I'm sure you guys are assuming that you can actually get to the gearbox.

Probably even thought you'd take the motor off of the boat.

Or maybe the boat is on a trailer!

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Perils of Sieg X3 (Quill DRO scale mounting)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9467e8347f7267fc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:54 am
From: Louis Ohland

Sorry, no poster comes with this...

Finally bought a 1" length of 6061 tubing with a 2.625 ID from Speedy
Metals. Bored it out to 2.675 or so then faced it to .625 long. Milled a
pocket, center drilled, ran a #25 in, followed with a #11 part way.
Tapped 10x24, over to the bandsaw, cut about 1/16th out (two cuts).
Tightened it up, nice and tight. Removed the collar, milled @ 1" flat
for a mounting plate for the bottom scale mount.

Yes, it would have been possible to take a .625" thick square of 6061
and bore/turn it, but that's a heckuva lot of chips.

The base for the scale had me flummoxed. I dislike drilling freehand
into cast iron. The current thought- I sawed off a length of .250 thick
6061 the same length as the scale's display, milled two bores in about
3mm deep for some rare earth magnets, then drilled and counterbored two
holes for the scale mounting screws.

Perhaps, when all is done, the magnets will hold the scale tight enough
to the cast iron mill head. Waiting on a 3/4" 2 flute mill to get here.
11/16ths just do not work (18mm dia magnets)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chinese digital caliper - first report
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c9953a5065106a17?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:52 am
From: "Steve Lusardi"

You will find that not only is the Chinese caliper less accurate, they eat batteries at least twice the rate of a Mitutoyo.
Steve

"Joseph Gwinn" <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote in message news:joegwinn-0DA636.09054024022010@news.giganews.com...
>I just got a $30 Harbor Freight (item 47257) six inch digital caliper, from the
> noodle factory, partly as an experiment, and ultimately to give to my 9 year old
> nephew.
>
> It is functional, albeit more crudely made and less accurate than a Mitutoyo
> (which costs four times as much). The random error of the 47257 seems to be
> about 0.002", largely due to head looseness. I tightened the head gib, and the
> error dropped to about 0.001", which is what HF claims. I don't know how well
> the gib adjustment will hold - the two adjustment screws seemed a bit loose.
>
> The clamp thumbscrew (that locks the head to the bar) was bent, so I
> straightened it with an adjustable wrench. No idea how it was bent, as this
> takes some force. The caliper came in a plastic case, and shipping damage was
> not apparent.
>
> The head slid reluctantly on the bar. This appeared to be due to a coating of
> blackish grease, which easily wiped off. But still there was too much drag and
> slip-stick. It turns out that the bar was precision ground but not polished,
> leaving grind marks perpendicular to the bar, so the grind marks were slowly
> filing away at the gib, which is brass. Not good, so I polished the grind marks
> by hand with crocus cloth. This helped immensely. I suppose that crocus cloth
> wrapped around a metal sanding block would do an even better flat polishing job.
>
> After cleaning all the nasty grease away, I lubricated the caliper with pure
> lanolin (used for instance to lubricate brass musical instruments). Pretty
> smooth now.
>
> The manual says that the caliper requires a SR44 (silver oxide) battery, but it
> came with two alkaline cells. Another corner cut.
>
>
> I will use this caliper for a while in the shop and see how it goes.
>
> Joe Gwinn

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PC Hardware Problem
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/52adc8b84c613bed?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:55 am
From: Winston

On 2/24/2010 12:22 AM, cavelamb wrote:
> Winston wrote:

(...)

>> I feel lucky that I was out of that business by the
>> time that lead-free solder became prevalent.
>> I don't like that stuff. :)
>>
>> --Winston
>
> completely concur!
>
> Fortunately I still have several pounds of 70/30.

Just checked the price of my fav 63/37 at ~25.00 for a
1 lb roll. Wow! Should have bought 'solder futures'.

--Winston

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:16 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Feb 24, 9:55 am, Winston <Wins...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
> ....
>
> Just checked the price of my fav 63/37 at ~25.00 for a
> 1 lb roll. Wow! Should have bought 'solder futures'.
>
> --Winston

Who knew that the valuable heavy metals would be lead, tin and copper?

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why have the Democrats suddenly hallted work on Solving the Health Care
Crisis?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/83aa5e51e0c6cfe5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 6:55 am
From: "SaPeIsMa"

<dcaster@krl.org> wrote in message
news:a8ae7c6e-bcb5-45e0-82e0-3fe9469183d6@c5g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 24, 7:22 am, Strabo <str...@flashlight.net> wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > Strabo wrote:
>
> >> The US nearly won WWII by itself in four years.
>
> > That will be news to anyone who has EVER looked at the war...
>
> > Dan
>
> >
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Who was available in 1941?
>
> South American and Mexico were compromised. The Far East
> was out of the picture.
>
> The Near East and Africa were under Nazi control.
>
> Europe was broken.
>
> Australia had no military capability.
>
> That leaves Russia. It's contribution was to keep a part
> of the Nazi military busy.
>
> In terms of men...
>
> ...Australia, Britain and Canada were the only functioning governments
> capable of assistance.
>
> Britain did a good job defending their isle but could not mount
> an effective counter. Its army was demoralized, it's air force was
> expended and its navy shot to hell.
>
> Australia and Canada supplied what men they could but had no
> manufacturing capacity to speak of.
>
> France and other allied contributions were minimal.
>
> The kicker was material. US production supplied every theater.
>
> No doubt. The US effectively won WWII.
#
# Where was the US in 1938 when the war started?
#

In the middle part of North America, last time I checked.

But to address the implicit point of your question
The US was trying to keep out of what was Europe coming apart at the seams
AGAIN, because of the stupid things they did to Germany after WWI.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HF battery drills
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e6dd22a0d6d1fff6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:18 am
From: "Bob La Londe"

"Steve B" <deserttraver@fishmail.net> wrote in message
news:5b9d57-c7v.ln1@news.infowest.com...
>
> "Bob La Londe" <nospam@nospam.no> wrote in message
> news:hm0s6t$5o9$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> "Snag" <snag_one@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:EdPgn.30561$K81.6157@newsfe18.iad...
>>> I'm going to be needing a battery drill for a small handyman business
>>> I'm starting , and right now I can't afford the one I really want .
>>> Anybody using one of the HF offerings ? They're a lot cheaper , but as
>>> we all know , cheaper tools often end up costing more in the long run -
>>> whether from dying in the middle of a job , or from screwin' up whatever
>>> you're working on .
>>> Same goes for their pin/finish nailers ... anyone have one ?
>>
>> Do not let not being able to afford a Milwaukee stop you from getting
>> your job done. If all you can afford is an HF get it, and get the
>> profits in from the job. Then take them and write them off as tool
>> replacement costs for a Milwaukee or Makita.
>>
>> I had a long informative reply, but my fat fingers and this computer ate
>> it.
>
> Let me put it to you this way: If you get out on a job, and your drill
> doesn't work, do you? There are MANY things that you can cut corners on,
> and cheap items are as good as expensive ones, but I don't consider a good
> battery drill to be in that category. Look at pawn shops. I have seen
> some killer deals there, and haggle with the guy from the moment you go
> in, offering him a lowball price. Walk around. Chances are, by the time
> you leave, they will want you to part with some of your money. If not, go
> to the next pawn shop. Check your local Craigslist. A friend of mine got
> a Porter Cable pancake compressor and three nail guns of various sizes,
> all never used for $125. Plus a good shock of hose, and thousands of
> nails.
>
> You don't want your drill to take the rest of the day off when you are not
> finished. Look for one with an extra battery. Very important. I like my
> DeWalt 18v.

Let me put it a different way. If you have $30 in your pocket and a job to
do today you can either not do it and still have $20 (lunch) in your pocket
tomorrow or you can buy a cheap drill, do the job, and tomorrow you have
$200 dollars in your pocket and a cheap drill which you can keep or throw
away.

Long term the better quality tool is always the best thing to get. Short
term it isn't always, and you have to get through the short term first.
Sometimes the best compromise is to buy both. One now and one later. The
problem with most folks is they go, "Ooooh! I have $200 in my pocket now.
I think I'll take the Ol' Lady and the Kids out to dinner instead of buying
the better drill."

Sure, if they had the $200 up front they would be better off to buy the
better drill upfront in the long run. But if they don't they will still be
better off to get the job done than to not get the job done.

I've been a contractor since I sold my first job in 1993. I didn't even
have a truck. I hired a buddy to help me out because he needed some work
and he had a truck. I didn't need his help to do the job, but I needed a
truck. If I had not needed the truck I could have done it myself and
pocketed more money, but I would not have been able to do the job without
the truck. If I had held out to buy a truck first I would not have gotten
that job and probably would not be a contractor today.

P.S. That first customer is still a client today.

P.P.S. I can't count the number of drills I have had in the last 20 years.
Some cheap ones, and some very good ones. My good rotary hammer was about
$800, but I have a $29.95 drill sitting on my work bench in the shop that
always has a 1/4" drill bit in it because its small, fits lots of places,
and it seems like I always need to punch a 1/4" hole in something. Right
now I've probably got more than a dozen drill motors of one type or another
(some I should probably throw away) and I know the difference between a
quality drill motor and a cheap one. I've had Ryobi, Skill, B&D, DeWalt,
Milwaukee, Makita, Porter Cable, Rigid, Crapsman, and generic ones. Hands
down I think Milwaukee are the best with Rigid and Makita coming up second,
and in a few years my 1/2" Rigid may move up to number one if it holds up
like my table saw and my band saw have.

What about DeWalt? I had 3 or 4 of those in cordless, and they were fine.
I was happy with how thy performed, but the chuck was proprietary, and one
of my guys managed to break a chuck. I couldn't just throw a chuck off a
burned up drill on it like I could with a Makita or a Milwaukee, so I
replaced them with Makitas and Milwaukees.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:37 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Feb 23, 10:42 pm, Larry Jaques <ljaq...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:37:42 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
> <deserttra...@fishmail.net> scrawled the following:
> >"Bob La Londe" <nos...@nospam.no> wrote in message
> >> "Snag" <snag_...@comcast.net> wrote in message

[someone wrote]
> >Look at pawn shops. I have seen some
> >killer deals there, ...
> I've never seen a good deal on a tool in a pawn shop in my life.
...

I buy a lot of stuff second-hand and agree, they may not be the best
deals relative to remaining wear life but they compete well with
Harbor Freight for backup tools, the ones you have two of in case one
is dropped or stolen or you don't want to keep swapping the drill,
countersink and screwdriver bits.

jsw

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:49 am
From: Ignoramus26960

There are good deals to be had at second hand stores.

I bought a set of new Craftsman ratcheting combination wrenches for
$10, just as one example. These guys, it seems, knew only one thing,
which is how to haggle for scrap gold jewelry, and knew nothing about
tools.

The key is to just not agree to a price that is not advantageous.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:32 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Feb 24, 10:49 am, Ignoramus26960 <ignoramus26...@NOSPAM.
26960.invalid> wrote:
> There are good deals to be had at second hand stores.
>
> I bought a set of new Craftsman ratcheting combination wrenches for
> $10, just as one example. These guys, it seems, knew only one thing,
> which is how to haggle for scrap gold jewelry, and knew nothing about
> tools.
>
> The key is to just not agree to a price that is not advantageous.
>
> i

Those specialists may take in a tool that other dealers refused
because they saw that it needs expensive repairs. If I can't try out
the tool I won't risk paying much unless the dealer will take it back,
which is unusual.

OTOH the way tools are distributed and packaged now, the second-hand
store is the ONLY place I can buy a single Torx or Allen screwdriver,
a 1-1/2 - 8 tap and some Anderson power connectors in one trip.

It's a treasure hunt, beware of pirates.

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bloom Box - metal content too...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/619ffcc6affaa7c6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:20 am
From: cavelamb

Richard J Kinch wrote:
> cavelamb writes:
>
>> This is a radical development of fuel cell technology ...
>
> Right. The same idea that has been the next big thing for, what, 50 years
> now? Suckers.

Want to put money on that, Richard?

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Palin caught lying again !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/11438d55184e2ddd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:22 am
From: Beam Me Up Scotty

On 2/24/2010 8:30 AM, Cliff wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:08:30 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destroy-Everything@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>> Be more specific, they are "all" ugly and old.... even the young ones
>> look ugly and old under the painted faces.
>>
>> Their soul is full of hate.
>
> Ann Coulter: "In October 2007, she began dating Andrew Stein, the former
> president of the New York City Council, a liberal Democrat."
> "At one public lecture she said: "I don't care about anything else: Christ
> died for my sins and nothing else matters.""
> "Coulter has stated that "I'm a Christian first and a mean-spirited, bigoted
> conservative second, and don't you ever forget it.""

Facetious

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:53 am
From: Beam Me Up Scotty

On 2/24/2010 6:30 AM, Cliff wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:04:36 -0500, Patriot Games <Patriot@america.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:33:50 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Patriot Games wrote:
>>>> Alaska DOES NOT have a nuclear plant (yet).
>>> It did at Ft. Greely, but it was decommisioned about 40 years ago.
>>
>> Not exactly... That site was less (if at all) about providing
>> electricity and more (if not entirely) about enriching uranium.
>
> It produced 2 MW it looks like. Electrical power.
> As "SM-1A operated at a uranium-235 enrichment of 93 percent"
> I don't quite see how it would "enrich Uranium"as it was fueled with
> very highly enriched Uranium to begin with.
> IIRC Most power plants are enriched to the 3 to 5% range, not
> to (nearly, I presume) weapons grade.

Isn't it turned into plutonium by inserting it into a power plant and
controlling the reaction? The USA did it to make Bombs?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Postcards from the edge
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/467357917c0397a4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 7:37 am
From: Beam Me Up Scotty

On 2/24/2010 8:17 AM, Cliff wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:52:32 -0600, Neolibertarian <cognac756@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <4hv4o51h3h02sav1a70e8t5ch6sbi0uos5@4ax.com>,
>> Cliff <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:14:40 -0600, Neolibertarian <cognac756@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hell, some people back then began to believe that the Vietnamese WANTED
>>>> to destroy all their human rights and freedoms--that they WANTED to
>>>> succumb to the repeated military incursions from the North.
>>>
>>> You really don't know much history, eh?
>>> http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html
>>
>> Beware those who do all your thinking for you.
>>
>> After the war, a million died in the camps and over a million became
>> "boat people."
>
> Why did the US kill so many?
> Cites?
>
>> During part of Carter's administration, almost 100,000 Vietnamese
>> refuges arrived every month in the US.
>>

We had 100,000 Cubans float here during the Mariel Boat Lift. That was
with Carters blessing also, we got all the jailed people from Cuba and
then some.

>> There's never anything "popular" about marxist regimes. Communists
>> cannot rule without secret police.
>>
>> Hanoi never believed for a moment that it could annex the South without
>> a major military incursion.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is it? Set 324
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8357ba5857a5fa66?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:00 am
From: "Rob H."

Thanks to everyone for the help on these, I changed my answer to say that
they are propeller shafts for boats.

Rob

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Another one strikes back
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/07f5c03f5dc437aa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:26 am
From: "Steve B"

http://www.wlwt.com/news/22600154/detail.html

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 13 topics - digest

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