twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 13 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

rec.crafts.metalworking@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Steel Mills?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d6f13afa3b7e8704?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 12:48 pm
From: "Existential Angst"

"Ned Simmons" <news@nedsim.com> wrote in message
news:tasvo5lah36fbrlsa0s2m08fb2ro9em983@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:40:45 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> What would the diff be between the two, anyway? Anything really
>>> consequential?
>
> 301 is easier to work harden than 304, which is why is it's the most
> commonly used material for SS springs, and presumably why it's easier
> to find in the work hardened condition than 304. I think it's somewhat
> less corrosion resistant than 304.
>
>>
>>This is going to be a punched product.
>> Instead of starting with 304 HH, how bout punching regular 304 and
>>then tempering the punched pieces at a local heat treater? My buddy sez
>>the
>>two are not equivalent and inspectors would be able to tell the
>>difference.
>>He thinks the half-hard has more to do with the rolling process than
>>subsequent heat treating.
>
> He's right. I'd check with Ryerson, Yarde, or other large distributor
> first. You may have to have heavier sheet re-rolled to get 1/2 hard
> 304.
>
> https://www.yarde.com/catalog/class4.html
> http://www.ryerson.com/stocklist/StocklistServlet?COM=GetTable&ID=1154
>
> If you want to cut out the distributor there are custom rolling mills
> and converters around. (One of my customers has several rolling mills,
> but they run more exotic stuff and probably wouldn't be good fit.) A
> quick google search turned up too much extraneous junk to be helpful
> -- I'm sure Thomas Register would work better.
>
> Thomas Register found this, for example...
> http://www.cadastainless.net/coil_specialty.html

Excellent! 304 halfhard right on the page!
But how did you get this?

I just now searched on "Stainless Steel" on Thomas, and then refined the
many results with "304", and no CADA!
--
EA

>
> --
> Ned Simmons

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 1:48 pm
From: Ned Simmons

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 15:48:11 -0500, "Existential Angst"
<UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote:

>
>Excellent! 304 halfhard right on the page!
>But how did you get this?
>
>I just now searched on "Stainless Steel" on Thomas, and then refined the
>many results with "304", and no CADA!

I don't remember exactly, some combination of jargon like:
stainless steel converting rolling slitting

I may have got to Thomasnet by searching that string on google.

--
Ned Simmons

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Suspend those pesky physics laws!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/29ce64ba74b5784a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 12:50 pm
From: "Buerste"

"Richard J Kinch" <kinch@truetex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9D31969844183someconundrum@216.196.97.131...
> Buerste writes:
>
>> Would I be better off with an electric switch and valve?
>
> The flaw of your design is that you do not control acceleration and
> deceleration, which not only is brutal, but prohibits precision control
> such as you describe. Curing an excess deceleration problem by braking
> and
> adding more deceleration is not a sound approach. You are controlling
> position mechanically, and perhaps the second derivative of velocity via
> air pressure, but not the second derivative. You are adding excess energy
> that is mechanical noise showing up as precision error.
>
> Figure out a way to decelerate evenly at the end of travel, so your
> mechanism comes to a controlled, smooth stop. You will get better
> precision, you will use less energy, and your mechanism will wear slower
> and last longer.

The obvious method would be to use a servo and program in the ramps. Too
expensive at this point, maybe in the future.

I have considered a hydraulic damper near the end of stroke to bleed off the
energy and not abruptly shock the system. But you see why if I unclamp the
wire, because it has so little mass it's momentum is negligible. The trick
I see is unclamping it at the right time so it coasts to a stop at the right
place against the steel block at the far end.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:08 pm
From: Tim Wescott

Buerste wrote:
> "Richard J Kinch" <kinch@truetex.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9D31969844183someconundrum@216.196.97.131...
>> Buerste writes:
>>
>>> Would I be better off with an electric switch and valve?
>> The flaw of your design is that you do not control acceleration and
>> deceleration, which not only is brutal, but prohibits precision control
>> such as you describe. Curing an excess deceleration problem by braking
>> and
>> adding more deceleration is not a sound approach. You are controlling
>> position mechanically, and perhaps the second derivative of velocity via
>> air pressure, but not the second derivative. You are adding excess energy
>> that is mechanical noise showing up as precision error.
>>
>> Figure out a way to decelerate evenly at the end of travel, so your
>> mechanism comes to a controlled, smooth stop. You will get better
>> precision, you will use less energy, and your mechanism will wear slower
>> and last longer.
>
> The obvious method would be to use a servo and program in the ramps. Too
> expensive at this point, maybe in the future.
>
> I have considered a hydraulic damper near the end of stroke to bleed off the
> energy and not abruptly shock the system. But you see why if I unclamp the
> wire, because it has so little mass it's momentum is negligible. The trick
> I see is unclamping it at the right time so it coasts to a stop at the right
> place against the steel block at the far end.
>
>
So the system is over constrained, with the wire both being held by the
roller and by the steel block? Ooh, bad you.

If the wire's momentum is negligible, can you adjust the tension on the
clamping gears so that as soon as it hits the block it stops? Or do the
gears fly back a bit after they stop at full extent?

I think a shock absorber on the cylinder (not 'damper', not for this, in
the US at least -- believe me, I've been living the terminology for the
last few months on That Damned Gate Project) would work quite well,
particularly if you could arrange for it to have a bit of a progressive
action. You can get little screw-in shock absorbers that are spring
loaded, damp when something lands on them, then return to 'out' when you
retract whatever it is that is pushing on the thing.

I'll bet you could select one of those that would work quite well,
particularly if you put a spring on the end of it so that deceleration
force is progressive rather than getting applied suddenly.

Alternately you could valve the cylinder so that as it gets close to
full extent the feed gets choked off -- I couldn't tell without doing
the math, but it seems like there'd be a 'right' combination of cut off
position and residual valve opening that would start bleeding off the
speed while still providing enough flow to complete the stroke at an
appropriately slow rate. In theory this would act exactly like the
shock absorber I'm suggesting, just using the cylinder as the damper and
the air as the working fluid.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Blocking newsgroups?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/7e634c4213fed3e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 12:54 pm
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <mVUjn.55692$0N3.29592@newsfe09.iad>, "William Wixon" <wwixon@frontiernet.net> wrote:

>a "me too" post. i'd *love* to be able to block misc.survivalism. cross
>posts from misc.survivalism are like driving past a car accident, i can't
>help but look, or at least take a peek, that's where/when i get into
>trouble. i said in a previous post i'd MUCH rather not post off topic
>stuff, but some of the stuff i see coming in through misc.survivalism PISSES
>me off so much i can't resist putting in my two cents. would be so much
>easier if i just could simply not see it at all. and then after
>misc.survivalism, all the other groups, guns, limbaugh, politics, etc. i
>tried and tried to figure out how to block misc.survivalism, couldn't figure
>out a way to do it. i posted this question to a outlook express newsgroup,
>there was no answer, i assume it's not possible. i don't want to have to
>screw around downloading and using (let alone pay for) another newsreader.

It's certainly possible, and there's no need to pay for another newsreader.
You really should be using another newsreader, since OE is a POS, but there
are plenty of good ones available free.

Anyway, here's how it's possible:
http://www.nfilter.org

Post here, or email me privately /doug at milmac dot com/ if you need help
setting it up.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:57 pm
From: BQ340

On 3/3/2010 12:38 PM, Louis Ohland wrote:
> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_:_FAQs_:_Filters
>
> Filtering based on Tags
>
> Thunderbird doesn't have explicit support for filtering by tags but you
> can select Custom Headers from the leftmost list box while editing the
> filter rule and add support for X-Mozilla-Keys, and then test whether it
> "contains" that tag. Thunderbird uses that header to store tags. For
> example, X-Mozilla-Keys: forum fyi indicates the message has the forum
> and fyi tags.
>
> IMAP accounts store tags using message attributes instead, so its not
> possible to do that with messages stored in remote folders. If you copy
> the message to a local folder it currently doesn't add a X-Mozilla-Keys
> header with the tags, though it will add a empty X-Mozilla-Keys header
> when you compact it. [2]

That sure quieted things down, thanks! Not exactly straightforward but I
got it to work. I was filtering on email addresses, but the x-posting
crap is what is out of control here.

MikeB

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - How Milton Friedman Saved Chile -- Milton Friedman gave Chileans
the intellectual wherewithal first to survive the quake, and now to build
their lives anew
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e89a5e26123600ee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 12:57 pm
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Mar 4, 1:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:

> >So you are saying that the Chile economy has not done better than
> >other South American countries?
>
> >Dan
>
> Nope. I didn't say anything even remotely like that, Dan. Read the post
> again.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

So you are saying that the Chile economy is an economy that more free
than other South American countries and that the Chile economy has
done better than other South American countries.

Dan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 1:21 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

<dcaster@krl.org> wrote in message
news:f2a92262-e3b5-4fa2-baef-4cf3237f9c5b@b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 4, 1:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:

>So you are saying that the Chile economy is an economy that more free
>than other South American countries and that the Chile economy has
>done better than other South American countries.
>
> Dan

Read the post. You must have skipped over a lot -- not that you have to, but
I already answered those questions.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: surface plate care
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/37060f4eef2c3b9d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 1:56 pm
From: "stu"

<stans4@prolynx.com> wrote in message
news:676ff112-8215-4de3-beb0-66f2f5f4fa05@o30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 3, 10:39 pm, "stu" <no where just yet> wrote:
> I've just bought a "precision plate". I think its made from steel rather
> than cast iron, but i haven't cleaned it yet. I doubt I will be using it
> very often. It's covered with some sort of grease and waxed paper. Once
> I've
> used it I want to regrease it. Are then any "greases" that are better than
> others for this? I've been told lanolin is the way to go.
> thanks
> Stuart

LPS 3 is like spray-on cosmoline, would be what I would use just
because I have it. I haven't seen cast iron surface plates for
decades, most everyone in the business has gone to granite, either
pink or black. No worries about rust or burrs with them.

Stan

The cost of getting granite delivered to Australia is a little high, $32US
for the plate I would like..(from shars)...$622US for delivery. Although
since buying the steel plate I have found a granite one half the size of the
$32US one for $59AU.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Engine bore measurements
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/36b58dee016a3a28?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:15 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

Richard W. wrote:

> These small engines don't have valve guide seals, so they all burn some oil.
> The more worn the valve guides the more oil is consumed.

The valves, seats and guides all look in good order. I'm sure these
engines burnt a little oil even when new. Surely some oil would sneak
past the rings, even in a new bore? The manual for this engine suggests
adding one tablespoon of engine oil to each gallon of fuel, when
"commercial petrol" is used. Whether this is to lubricate the
carburettor or to make up for burnt engine oil, I don't know. But as
long as I don't have to top up the oil too often, I don't mind.
Hopefully it won't burn enough oil to get from the "High" to "Low" mark
in a season, but I'll still check the level every time I start the engine.

Best wishes,

Chris

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:17 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

Richard W. wrote:

> Pistons are not round they are tapered in length when new and oval shaped.
> Pistons should only be measured on the skirt near the bottom. That will tell
> you how bad they are worn. Also Pistons are usually about .025 undersize
> where the rings are. So checking with a feeler gauge tells you nothing. On
> cars engines it recommended to rebore when the taper in the bore is .005" or
> greater. If you use cast iron rings I have seen as much as .012" taper and
> not burn oil. Only you may get 60 to 70K miles before it becomes an oil
> burner. I have seen this with SBC engines.

I think they're cast iron rings in a cast iron bore, with an aluminium
piston.

Chris

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:20 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

Wild_Bill wrote:

> After checking the piston grooves with a new set of rings, if the
> grooves are OK, then removing the ridge and honing may be all the
> cylinder work you need to do.

Is ridge removal essential? How do you remove the ridge without reboring
the cylinder? I remember being told once that if the piston rings hit
the ridge when the engine was run fast, it could damage the rings, but I
don't know if this is true.

Chris

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 3:39 pm
From: "Richard W."

"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22NOSPAM@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:4B90321E.3000500@cantabgold.net...
> Wild_Bill wrote:
>
>> After checking the piston grooves with a new set of rings, if the grooves
>> are OK, then removing the ridge and honing may be all the cylinder work
>> you need to do.
>
> Is ridge removal essential? How do you remove the ridge without reboring
> the cylinder? I remember being told once that if the piston rings hit the
> ridge when the engine was run fast, it could damage the rings, but I don't
> know if this is true.
>
> Chris

Yes it's true. They use a ridge reamer for this. It's used with a wrench to
spin it.

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-36500-Cylinder-Ridge-Reamer/dp/B000P0ZK1O

Richard W.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Educating Palin ??????
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/943320276cebeb7a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:13 pm
From: "RD (The Sandman)"

Cliff <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in
news:210uo5p9o4p8p1jnfmovfq47loh66egr8d@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:46:45 -0600, "RD (The Sandman)"
> <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> Found herr shrubbie's transcript yet?
>>
>>Not at Harvard.....he went to Yale.
>
> http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2004/02/bushs_mba_from_
> .html "Bush's MBA from Harvard"
>
> They did not support him for any elections and
> have now added required Ethics classes for an MBA I heard.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Ethics+cla
> sses+harvard+mba&btnG=Google+Search
>
> I doubt he can spell "ethics".

Bush is the eldest son of President George H. W. Bush, who served as the
41st President, and Barbara Bush, making him one of only two American
presidents to be the son of a preceding president.[4] After graduating
from Yale University in 1968, and Harvard Business School in 1975, Bush
worked in his family's oil businesses.

I will grant you a split on that one since he did graduate from both. ;)

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Expecting a carjacker, rapist or drug pusher to care that his
possession or use of a gun is unlawful is like expecting a terrorist
to care that his car bomb is taking up two parking spaces."

--Joseph T. Chew

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT Its getting bloody awful!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/47ca63d50cb132f0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:17 pm
From: nobody@nowhere.org

On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:11:17 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

>nobody@nowhere.org fired this volley in
>news:6ltvo59ggqsgab5pcr2g7ih3vc15n1nmm8@4ax.com:
>
>> Perhaps you could try a design similar to the sheetrock lifts? Or
>> maybe modify one of them for the additional weight and stresses.
>>
>> I found out I'm too old to throw rock around like I used to and rented
>> one last Summer. That's a tool I might buy if I stumble across a good
>> deal.
>
>$169 delivered to my door from Ebay. I often coveted one, but wouldn't
>pay the $500+ bill plus shipping from the likes of Northern Tools. Then
>I found the ones on Ebay, and couldn't pass up the opportunity. 'never
>looked back! I wouldn't part with it.
>
>LLoyd

That's a good deal. I'll look into it, thanks.

Drove 250 miles to buy one from a rental company that was going under
last year. The guy told me on three seperate occasions that it would
go 10' high. I have to have that, anything less won't work. I get
there and guess how high it went? Yeah, 8' 6".

Newb

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:37 pm
From: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

nobody@nowhere.org fired this volley in
news:irb0p5p7nebhvtub7eb7h91nk90va4b7hu@4ax.com:

> The guy told me on three seperate occasions that it would
> go 10' high. I have to have that, anything less won't work. I get
> there and guess how high it went? Yeah, 8' 6".

Mine goes 10'2", but even if it doesn't, you can either buy or easily
build an extension to get another 4-5' out of it. It's a simple tool,
and every one I've seen is _exactly_ the same design, even though the
vendors are really cut-throat about driving down the competition's
features and quality.

(ps... I got the "red" one. The "blue" one is inferior <G>. Whatever...
but I'm really happy with the "red" one.)

LLoyd

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 3:19 pm
From: Winston

On 3/4/2010 10:11 AM, nobody@nowhere.org wrote:

(...)

> Perhaps you could try a design similar to the sheetrock lifts? Or
> maybe modify one of them for the additional weight and stresses.

I'm 'way lazier than you guys.
Those 100 lb. sheets of plywood are about 30 lb over my max limit,
even with a convenient handle.

> I found out I'm too old to throw rock around like I used to and rented
> one last Summer. That's a tool I might buy if I stumble across a good
> deal.
>
> Newb

Art mentioned the Telpro Troll model 49. As opposed to the Troll 29
or the Troll 112, though they are cool, too. (I'm sure glad they like
that name.)

It appeals to my sedentary nature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYHiEhjh6v0&feature=player_embedded

http://www.amazon.com/Telpro-TROLL-300-Pound-Capacity-Handler/dp/B0000224PA

I wouldn't be able to locate the parts to build one for 37 bux.

I ordered one yesterday.

--Winston

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Vernier caliper accuracy
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/76e5fcfdb23ed51e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:23 pm
From: Christopher Tidy

Ed Huntress wrote:

>>Interesting. Why are pistons intentionally made elliptical?
>
>
> Because the thicker sections, which are the boss areas for the wrist pins
> (piston pins) expand with much more force than the thin sections. So the
> pistons have a smaller diameter across the boss area.

By the way, Ed, how are elliptical pistons machined? Are they made using
a CNC mill, or a special lathe on which the tool can move in phase with
the rotation of the workpiece? Just curious...

Chris

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 3:23 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22NOSPAM@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:4B9032EE.8090703@cantabgold.net...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>
>>>Interesting. Why are pistons intentionally made elliptical?
>>
>>
>> Because the thicker sections, which are the boss areas for the wrist pins
>> (piston pins) expand with much more force than the thin sections. So the
>> pistons have a smaller diameter across the boss area.
>
> By the way, Ed, how are elliptical pistons machined? Are they made using a
> CNC mill, or a special lathe on which the tool can move in phase with the
> rotation of the workpiece? Just curious...
>
> Chris

A darned good question. I wish the piston man would step in here (Anthony?).
He's a world-class expert on this subject.

In high-volume production, they've traditionally been turned on special
lathes with cam-operated cross slides. That requires a cam for each piston
profile. Takisawa makes, or made, a programmable machine that, IIRC, uses
solenoid-actuated slides. It's slow. There also have been some piezoelectric
actuators. And that was all ten years ago. There may be something new.

I was involved with these things due to a joint project we had going at
Wasino lathes, where I worked in those days. We were using a
magnetostrictive actuator, made of the material used in submarine sonar. It
worked great but programming the hysteresis out of it was a nightmare. The
project was dropped about the time I left.

Anyway, the challenge has been to come up with a programmable system that
provides adequate thrust at high turning speeds. They're doing it, I think;
I just haven't kept up.

--
Ed Huntress

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bibles Wanted !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f2e06ad69080532c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:21 pm
From: Lookout

On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 15:37:28 -0500, "lab~rat >:-)" <chase@cheeze.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:45:12 -0600, Lookout <mrLookout@yahoo.com>
>puked:
>
>>On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:18:00 -0500, "lab~rat >:-)" <chase@cheeze.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:44:33 -0600, Lookout <mrLookout@yahoo.com>
>>>puked:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:13:08 -0500, "lab~rat >:-)" <chase@cheeze.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:01:50 -0600, Lookout <mrLookout@yahoo.com>
>>>>>puked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:12:41 -0500, "lab~rat >:-)" <chase@cheeze.net>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:16:11 -0600, Lookout <mrLookout@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>puked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:37:39 -0500, "lab~rat >:-)" <chase@cheeze.net>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 06:55:06 -0500, Cliff
>>>>>>>>><Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> puked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/02/national/main6260070.shtml
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ya know, as an atheist, I really wonder what this group is thinking
>>>>>>>>>about. The whole point of being an atheist is distancing yourself
>>>>>>>>>from a group of sheep that believe the same thing, but these assholes
>>>>>>>>>seem to be inserting themselves in the community to interfere with
>>>>>>>>>those sheep.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>They would be the first ones bitching if xtian groups were out there
>>>>>>>>>condemning atheists and ridiculing their beliefs, yet there they are
>>>>>>>>>prosthelytizing every bit as much as a fucking Jehovah's Witness
>>>>>>>>>standing on your porch Saturday morning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As I've pointed out atheists are as wrong as theists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In what regard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can't prove there is no god anymore than a theist can prove there
>>>>>>is one.
>>>>>
>>>>>And furthermore, you can't prove one is more wrong than the other.
>>>>
>>>>Go back and look at what I said. I said they are both just as wrong as
>>>>the other.
>>>
>>>I saw what you said. I still say you're wrong. It's a logical
>>>fallacy to claim that's an absolute. If there WERE a god, and that
>>>god was as described by a set religion, then that religion would be
>>>LESS wrong than atheism.
>>
>>"IF" doesn't cut it. Try again using absolutes.
>>
>>>You're clearly agnostic as you believe that neither can ever be proven
>>>or explained, but your agnostic belief is just as capable of being
>>>wrong.
>>
>>And wrong again.
>>>
>>>And the statement you should have said was:
>>>
>>>"Both (atheism) and (christianity) are CAPABLE of being just as wrong
>>>as the other.
>>
>>And wrong again.
>>>
>>>For now.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>But that being said, stories in the bible can be proven to be false.
>>>>
>>>>And some have some historical references that can be proven.
>>>
>>>Clearly. I'm referring more to the magical miracle part that makes
>>>the bible a religious book.
>>
>>Nah..makes it a fairy tale.
>
>I'm not sure what we are arguing about here. You think that atheism
>and christianity are equally wrong in what way?

They both claim to have the answer. Neither can prove it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: mill: fish scale pattern on ways
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e40c4e7c12986938?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:31 pm
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Mar 4, 12:52 pm, tom walter <t2m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, I'm very new to machining and I just got an RF45 clone mill.
> I've read as much as I can about prepping of this machine and I was
> trying to figure out for myself today whether I should lap the ways.
> On close inspection the ways have a sort of ground fish scale
> pattern. From a distance the ways look almost like mother of pearl.
> It looks like the pattern was applied manually because the marks are
> not uniform in spacing. Can anyone tell be what the marks are
> called, what they are for, and how they are applied? Just curious.
>
> BTW I'm probably NOT going to try to lap the ways because 1) A well
> respected guy at IH said that most chinese mills no longer need
> lapping, and 2) at least to my eye, they seem much better than
> pictures of others earlier machines, both before and after they
> lapped. I basically understand the big debate as to whether lapping
> should ever be done. --But I would still like that question above
> answered.
>
> --zeb

Does it look like the bottom pic on the right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_scraper

I've never seen an import mill with scraped ways, doesn't mean they
didn't sell one. If that's what you have, the article should give you
an idea of what you have. If done right, you shouldn't need to lap.

Stan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to play with EMC2 and G code without an actual mill
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2e32bcd27cf3bc6c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 2:51 pm
From: Joe Pfeiffer

Ignoramus27796 <ignoramus27796@NOSPAM.27796.invalid> writes:
>
> Take the raw piece of material to be milled. Represent it as a
> collection of points on a 3D grid (most likely a rectangular set, as
> you normally start with a steel rectangle). When the milling bit
> goes through its path, every point on its path is removed from material,
> and this means it is removed from the set of points that we began
> with. We will end up with a set of points at the end that, if
> displayed properly, would visualize the remaining piece.

Conceptually, yes. As a practical programming exercise, you pretty much
need to come up with a much more efficient representation.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is it? Set 326
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/73eb0fedc506d4a3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 3:00 pm
From: "Rob H."

> 1868 - oil-lamp clock

Correct

> 1869 - some sort of auger or drill

Yes, it was for use by miners.

Rob

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 3:04 pm
From: "Rob H."

>> http://55tools.blogspot.com/

>1871: A Peavey hoist, a crude but powerful version of a comealong.
>Works with heavy chain. Used in the woods to open the sluice gates of
>driving dams, among other things. The socket takes a long wood
>handle.

>John Martin

According to the patent it was made for something other than what you
suggest, but you're correct that it works with a heavy chain.

Rob

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 4 2010 3:21 pm
From: "Lew Hodgett"

1871: A early version of what my dad called a "binder", an over center
take up used with chains to tie down a load on the bed of an 18
wheeler.

Still very much in use today.

Lew

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Thursday, March 4, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

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