twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 18 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

rec.crafts.metalworking@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is it? Set 329
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/1132fdc41582b35f?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 5:24 pm
From: Dave Balderstone

In article <hoj9qd02abo@news1.newsguy.com>, Rob H. <rhvp65@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >> 1890 - Ice knife.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Steve W.
>
>
> >I agree with Stegve W on 1890, only I think of it as an ice saw.
> >Norm
>
>
> You've got the right idea but it's called an ice plow.
>
> The answers can be seen at the link below although I'm still not sure about
> a few of them this week:
>
> http://55tools.blogspot.com/2010/03/set-329.html#answers

NOW I recognize 1887!

When I was a lad may grandfather told me that when I got older he'd
show me his rat hole pounder, that he used to pound sand into rat
holes.

I bet it looked just like this!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:20 pm
From: "Paul Hovnanian P.E."

"Steve W." wrote:
>
> Rob H. wrote:
> >
> >> Could do with a better picture but, is it the mechanism from a
> >> collapsable top hat?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers!
> >> Ade
> >
> >
> > That's it! The bottom of the second photo was cut off because the brim
> > of the hat could be seen and would have made it too easy.
> >
> >
> > Rob
>
> So, do you have to have a collapseable head to wear it?

That's what #1887 is for.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal

==============================================================================
TOPIC: If George Bush........
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ee503716cb3ad0d5?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 5:33 pm
From: Larry Jaques

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:50:03 +0700, the infamous John
<johnbslocomb@invalid.com> scrawled the following:

>On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:46:57 -0400, "Buerste" <buerste@buerste.com>
>wrote:

>>What ever you subsidize, you get more of...what ever you tax you get less
>>of. Write that down and live it! Consider very carefully what you want to
>>subsidize and what you want to tax. You want to tax business and money
>>suppliers and subsidize illegal aliens, welfare recipients and abortions. I
>>want to create favorable conditions for businesses and investors to create
>>jobs, teach skills to people and create wealth. You guys have it completely
>>backwards.
>>
>
>But passing a medical plan for the masses sure gets a lot of votes
>next election.

What medical plan, John? The major mandate is here is to force people
to pay insurance companies.

--
Challenges are gifts that force us to search for a new center of gravity.
Don't fight them. Just find a different way to stand.
-- Oprah Winfrey

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: A simple fix for health care.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/71a212adc13a7894?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:38 pm
From: "John R. Carroll"

Ned Simmons wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:21:19 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>> Ned Simmons wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:16:04 -0700, Tim Wescott
>>> <tim@seemywebsite.now> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And I still have to pay taxes on my health insurance premiums,
>>>> unless I go to work for da man!!! So I'm just screwed screwed
>>>> screwed unless I want to check my stomach lining into the Betty
>>>> Ford Clinic and go to work for some poor middle manager who's
>>>> squeezed between the needs of his employees and the supercilious
>>>> desires of some idiot in a corner office somewhere.
>>>
>>> Why? As far as I know, if you're running a legitimate business,
>>> i.e., you file taxes, have income, and earn a profit, you can
>>> deduct health insurance premiums.
>>
>> Only if you are able to participate in a small group to get coverage
>> through your business.
>
> But that's a result of distortions in the insurance market, not tax
> policy.

The result is the same.

>
>> Otherwise, you are covered through the private market as an
>> individual and policy premiums come out of your after tax earnings.
>
> As I understand it, those premiums are deductible on your personal
> income tax. Clearly not as desirable as a pre-tax deduction, but a
> whole lot better than nothing.

Medical expenses are deductable once they exceed a fixed percentage of
income.
Every State that has an income tax sets there own policy in addition to what
Federal law stipulates.

--
John R. Carroll

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 5:57 pm
From: Ned Simmons

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:38:14 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
<nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:

>Ned Simmons wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:21:19 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>> <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>
>>> Ned Simmons wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:16:04 -0700, Tim Wescott
>>>> <tim@seemywebsite.now> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And I still have to pay taxes on my health insurance premiums,
>>>>> unless I go to work for da man!!! So I'm just screwed screwed
>>>>> screwed unless I want to check my stomach lining into the Betty
>>>>> Ford Clinic and go to work for some poor middle manager who's
>>>>> squeezed between the needs of his employees and the supercilious
>>>>> desires of some idiot in a corner office somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Why? As far as I know, if you're running a legitimate business,
>>>> i.e., you file taxes, have income, and earn a profit, you can
>>>> deduct health insurance premiums.
>>>
>>> Only if you are able to participate in a small group to get coverage
>>> through your business.
>>
>> But that's a result of distortions in the insurance market, not tax
>> policy.
>
>The result is the same.

Sure, but Tim was blaming the government.

>
>>
>>> Otherwise, you are covered through the private market as an
>>> individual and policy premiums come out of your after tax earnings.
>>
>> As I understand it, those premiums are deductible on your personal
>> income tax. Clearly not as desirable as a pre-tax deduction, but a
>> whole lot better than nothing.
>
>Medical expenses are deductable once they exceed a fixed percentage of
>income.
>Every State that has an income tax sets there own policy in addition to what
>Federal law stipulates.

This page agrees with my understanding...
http://www.wwwebtax.com/adjustments/self_emp_health.htm

"If you are self employed (including general partners in partnerships,
limited partners receiving guaranteed payments, and taxpayers who
receive wages from S-corporations in which they own more than 2% of
the common stock) and have a net profit for the tax year, you can
deduct 100% of the self employed health insurance premiums you paid
in 2009 for yourself, your spouse, and your dependents on Form 1040,
Line 29. You can include the tax deductible portion of the self
employed health insurance premiums paid for tax qualified long term
care policies. Additional rules apply."

--
Ned Simmons

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 9:20 pm
From: "John R. Carroll"

Ned Simmons wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:38:14 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>> Ned Simmons wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:21:19 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>> <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ned Simmons wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:16:04 -0700, Tim Wescott
>>>>> <tim@seemywebsite.now> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I still have to pay taxes on my health insurance premiums,
>>>>>> unless I go to work for da man!!! So I'm just screwed screwed
>>>>>> screwed unless I want to check my stomach lining into the Betty
>>>>>> Ford Clinic and go to work for some poor middle manager who's
>>>>>> squeezed between the needs of his employees and the supercilious
>>>>>> desires of some idiot in a corner office somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? As far as I know, if you're running a legitimate business,
>>>>> i.e., you file taxes, have income, and earn a profit, you can
>>>>> deduct health insurance premiums.
>>>>
>>>> Only if you are able to participate in a small group to get
>>>> coverage through your business.
>>>
>>> But that's a result of distortions in the insurance market, not tax
>>> policy.
>>
>> The result is the same.
>
> Sure, but Tim was blaming the government.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> Otherwise, you are covered through the private market as an
>>>> individual and policy premiums come out of your after tax earnings.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, those premiums are deductible on your personal
>>> income tax. Clearly not as desirable as a pre-tax deduction, but a
>>> whole lot better than nothing.
>>
>> Medical expenses are deductable once they exceed a fixed percentage
>> of income.
>> Every State that has an income tax sets there own policy in addition
>> to what Federal law stipulates.
>
> This page agrees with my understanding...
> http://www.wwwebtax.com/adjustments/self_emp_health.htm
>
> "If you are self employed (including general partners in partnerships,
> limited partners receiving guaranteed payments, and taxpayers who
> receive wages from S-corporations in which they own more than 2% of
> the common stock) and have a net profit for the tax year, you can
> deduct 100% of the self employed health insurance premiums you paid
> in 2009 for yourself, your spouse, and your dependents on Form 1040,
> Line 29. You can include the tax deductible portion of the self
> employed health insurance premiums paid for tax qualified long term
> care policies. Additional rules apply."

Yeah.
What they are talking about is the copay on group coverage.
I wrapped up my sub-S four years ago and have been taxed on this stuff since
entering the individual market in spite of the fact that I contract my
services to earn a living.

--
John R. Carroll

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Somewhat OT: Well Wiring
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fc2d499a65092f3e?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:15 pm
From: Ecnerwal

From what I understand of wire insulation codes, ANY TW or THWN wire (or
other wire with a W in the type code) is waterproof, period. Conduits
are assumed to be full of water if they run outside, so wet location
wire is supposed to work fine in water.

I'm wiring a submersible well pump. 12-2 w/g "well wire" is thus far so
much more costly than 3 rolls of 12-gauge wire and I "twist it myself"
(the product I'm comparing is just 3 wires twisted, no jacket) that I'm
rather tempted to do exactly that, since I can't see that there's
anything "special" about "submersible well pump wire" other than its
"special bend-over price." At least, if I understand wire insulation
codes correctly. There's no "special insulation code just for wells" -
the stuff is typically TW (60C - no problem in a hole in the ground that
stays near 10-15C most of the time.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:34 pm
From: BQ340

On 3/26/2010 9:15 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
> From what I understand of wire insulation codes, ANY TW or THWN wire (or
> other wire with a W in the type code) is waterproof, period. Conduits
> are assumed to be full of water if they run outside, so wet location
> wire is supposed to work fine in water.
>
> I'm wiring a submersible well pump. 12-2 w/g "well wire" is thus far so
> much more costly than 3 rolls of 12-gauge wire and I "twist it myself"
> (the product I'm comparing is just 3 wires twisted, no jacket) that I'm
> rather tempted to do exactly that, since I can't see that there's
> anything "special" about "submersible well pump wire" other than its
> "special bend-over price." At least, if I understand wire insulation
> codes correctly. There's no "special insulation code just for wells" -
> the stuff is typically TW (60C - no problem in a hole in the ground that
> stays near 10-15C most of the time.)
>

I think pump cable is annealed due to the movement it is subject to when
the pump cuts in/out.

MikeB

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:17 pm
From: Ecnerwal

In article <hojncf$con$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
BQ340 <BQ340@roadrunner.com> wrote:

> On 3/26/2010 9:15 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
> > From what I understand of wire insulation codes, ANY TW or THWN wire (or
> > other wire with a W in the type code) is waterproof, period. Conduits
> > are assumed to be full of water if they run outside, so wet location
> > wire is supposed to work fine in water.
> >
> > I'm wiring a submersible well pump. 12-2 w/g "well wire" is thus far so
> > much more costly than 3 rolls of 12-gauge wire and I "twist it myself"
> > (the product I'm comparing is just 3 wires twisted, no jacket) that I'm
> > rather tempted to do exactly that, since I can't see that there's
> > anything "special" about "submersible well pump wire" other than its
> > "special bend-over price." At least, if I understand wire insulation
> > codes correctly. There's no "special insulation code just for wells" -
> > the stuff is typically TW (60C - no problem in a hole in the ground that
> > stays near 10-15C most of the time.)
> >
>
> I think pump cable is annealed due to the movement it is subject to when
> the pump cuts in/out.
>
> MikeB

The torque arrestor (rubber football-like thing clamped to the pipe just
above the pump) is supposed to keep the rest of the system from moving,
much. Likewise, a series of standoffs/spacers is supposed to keep the
pipe, wire and rope from tangling up or hitting the sidewalls. Still,
worth a thought. Thanks.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

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TOPIC: Abec 9 bearings
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/4d41ec9c7343fd9f?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:28 pm
From: Ignoramus8345

Finally came across one.

Here's how they look like.

http://yabe.algebra.com/~ichudov/misc/ebay/Barden-Precision-Bearings-202HDL-202HCDUL/Barden-Precision-Bearings-202HDL-202HCDUL-6609.jpg

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TOPIC: DIY surge protection...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fa560b93f2504a9b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:32 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

westom wrote:
>
> On Mar 26, 4:55 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > Why is so much of the Teleco plant fiber optic, that requires no
> > electrical protection?
>
> So again you cannot answer the question.

What question? Why you keep trolling with your outdated and wrong
ideas?

> So as a hate monger, you
> must change the subject. Every CO has copper wires.

No. Not even at power line is copper these days. The local
switching center is all fiber optic, and the power lines are aluminum.

> Every CO has
> typically 100 surges with each thunderstorm.

Try to prove that. You can't, because it's another factoid you
created with a box of Ex-lax.

> And damage must never happen.

Yet it used to, before they started the conversion to fiber optics.
It happened quite often. That's why they were constantly reparing their
physical plant. The old leaded cable had to be pressurized with dry
nitrogen to keep water out when lighting pinholed the lead. They used
to monitor the tanks, and if too much was leaking, they used an
ultrasonic sniffer to find the pinholes.

> Why? They don't waste money on plug-in protectors. They
> spend massively less money for the protectors that actually do
> protection.

Sigh. They did use plug in protectors on the phone lines. EDCO made
them, but the market is a lot smaller these days. Now they are sold for
PBX systems.

> Every incoming wire in every cable connects short to
> earth ground via a 'whole house' protector.

So, they have surge suppressors on optical cable?

> Because that is the
> protection that even makes direct lightning strikes irrelevant.

Bullshit. A direct strike can blow a hole through a building, take
out the switching system for the plant's 48 VC power system, and leave
it a smoking wreck.

> That is how it was done 100 years ago.

Sure it was.

> That is based even in the
> principles demonstrated by Franklin in 1752.

Yawn. Franklin was an early, "Hold my beer" type. He was an ignorant
bumbler who was lucky he didn't die from his belief that lightning could
be harnessed to provide electricity.

Florida was switching to fiber optic trunklines and smaller switch
centers 20+ years ago. My copper phone line runs less than one mile
before it is converted to fiber, combined with a lot of other lines,
then routed to a switching center about the size of a single car
garage. You're at least 30 years behind the times, and ignorant as
ever.

Keep posting your nonsense. Everyone can see you for what you are.

Hate mongers? Yes, I despise liars and idiots with nothing but
flimsy straw men.

> Rather than admit reality, you would throw out fiber optics as a
> solution? What is the best solution per dollar? What makes even
> direct lightning strikes to utility wires irrelevant? A 'whole house'
> protector connected to the only thing always necessary for surge
> protection - earth ground.

You wouldn't know reality if it hit you in the face.

> What defines every protection layer? Each layer always has one
> thing - single point earth ground. What must magic box protectors
> avoid discussing to protect obscene profit margins? Earth ground.

Yawn. Keep spouting your narrow minded message. BTW, have you ever
heard of EDCO? Friends of mine just bought their factory building to
move their manufacturing business.

> Spin and accusation does not change reality.

The stop spinning and accusing.

> COs suffer hundreds of
> surges without damage - because the technology was even understood 100
> years ago.. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A
> protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Sigh. The classic CO is a dinosaur. Technology has passed it by.
Learn what is really going on so you don't keep embarrassing yourself.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

http://www.flickr.com/photos/materrell/

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TOPIC: Western snow plow with all hydraulics and controller
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f415f0567c066041?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:37 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> On Mar 26, 4:30 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > Pete Snell wrote:
> >
> > > Larry Jaques wrote:
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Challenges are gifts that force us to search for a new center of gravity.
> > > > Don't fight them. Just find a different way to stand.
> > > > -- Oprah Winfrey
> >
> > > Wait a minute! Larry quoting Oprah? Is this bizarro-usenet?
> >
> > Some guys take 'Casual Fridays' way too far!
>
> Some guys are retired. The other day she had a porno queen on, Raquel
> Welch is coming Monday.

I had more than my fill of daytime TV, when working in a TV shop in
my teens. :(

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

http://www.flickr.com/photos/materrell/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT -- off grid power systems
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/284c9711ef5c39e6?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:37 pm
From: David Lesher

I'd like to chat offline with someone who has installed a solar
array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
{"meter backwards"}.

And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
around such.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:51 pm
From: Ted Frater

David Lesher wrote:
> I'd like to chat offline with someone who has installed a solar
> array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
> {"meter backwards"}.
>
> And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
> around such.
>
>
Weve been off grid for some 39 yrs.
used diesels for power generation, on demand systems by Lister, called
the startamatic set up.
5 yrs ago found 3 tons of nicad alkaline( sodium hydroxide ) batteries.
so then invested in an 3kw "outback" US system of charger/inverter.
Been in use for 6 months and has proved very efficient.
Next step is to use one of our 6/1 diesels running on straight
vegetable oil as a dc generator to eliminate the use of fossil fuel.
Will need to make a suitable alternator aka windmill permanent magnet type.
as for solar, this could be a possibility but due to the poor UK
weatherm sunshine is not reliable enough for us.
also the cost of connecting to our uk grid is prohibitive, due to the
distance.
Google for outback there the best right now for what you want.
Ted
Dorset
uk

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TOPIC: fun with your tractor
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8b925e9e3238029e?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 6:43 pm
From: rangerssuck

On Mar 26, 8:20 pm, Larry Jaques <ljaq...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:02:41 -0500, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
> <lionsl...@consolidated.net> scrawled the following:
>
> >Notice the track fit in a slot. The top held the track while
> >the bottom held it - in a slant, they bound the track in place.
>
> >Quality hand and eye control that one had!
>
> I thought it looked a bit jumpy every once in awhile, myself. With the
> newer controls, that should have been smooth as silk.
>
> Speaking of quality, did you guys see who was in the studio? It was
> the Spice Girls! Posh and Baby Spice on either side of the host.
> Yummy!
>
> --
> Challenges are gifts that force us to search for a new center of gravity.
> Don't fight them. Just find a different way to stand.
> -- Oprah Winfrey

Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed to be able to identify the
Spice Girls?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Another failed liberal suicide
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/9c353fd0ad29c399?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:02 pm
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

Liberal tries to blow his brains out the hard way...LOL!

http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20100322-206018.html

Man inserts zucchini into anus in suicide attempt

A 62-year-old man was rushed to hospital after he attempted to take his own
life the ancient way.

The sexagenarian inserted a zucchini into his anus in the attempted suicide
at his home in Hong Kong on Friday.

According to Ming Bao, the man's daughter who returned home at about 10.40pm
was shocked to see her father moaning in pain and lying in a pool of blood.

She rushed him to the hospital for bleeding in the anus.

When asked by the medical assistants, the man said he wished to die and that
it was an ancient way to take one's own life.

The man is recuperating at the hospital after doctors removed the zucchini
that was left in his rectum.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stupid Liberal calls 911...from jail!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2d513cd81fba893d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:05 pm
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

http://shavedlongcock.blogspot.com/2010/03/cops-gave-woman-one-call-after-arrest.html

Cops gave woman one call after arrest, so she dialed 9-1-1
After Naperville police booked a woman for disorderly conduct, they granted
her the customary one phone call.
She promptly dialed 911. To report she was being held against her will at
the Naperville police station.
Police were not amused. They charged Carly A. Houston, 29, with filing a
false 911 report, Naperville police said today.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Who will be the first?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f434d5963fd21822?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:15 pm
From: rangerssuck

On Mar 26, 7:45 pm, "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote:
> "Hawke" <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
>
> news:hoj25c$46k$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Sorry dippy-do, I'm a centrist extremist and I don't have a "party".
>
> > You're a centrist extremist, are you? That's different. In fact it's so
> > different that no one but you has ever heard of it. Truth is that term is
> > an oxymoron. So you're something, but not that, just like you're not a
> > short, tall man. I smell a conservative in disguise. I don't have a party
> > either but some people still insist on calling me a liberal. So I think
> > you're a conservative.
>
> >> If you actually comprehended anything I wrote you would have seen that I
> >> think the liberals are ineffective in dealing with the islamist threat,
> >> and the religious conservatives (of any religion) are the main threat to
> >> civilization.
>
> > Well, I do agree that religion is a threat to humanity but I don't know if
> > it's a main threat. I don't think you have the evidence to support your
> > belief that liberals are ineffective in dealing with Islamic threats.
> > "Islam" in itself is not a threat to the U.S. There is a group of
> > fundamentalist Muslims that do pose a threat to the U.S. but it's not that
> > big a threat and it's not a threat that liberals can't handle. The facts
> > show that Obama's administration and policies regarding anti U.S. Muslims
> > are proving more effective than the last administration was in dealing
> > with them. I think your view is based on emotion and not facts. If you
> > were just looking at the facts you would see the liberal Obama
> > administration is dealing quite well with what you call the islamist
> > threat. Which, all by itself, indicates your conservative point of view
> > despite what label you put on yourself.
>
> > Hawke
>
> Probably true, but if we had a Democrat in office instead of Bush, we would
> more than likely had terrorists with ICBM's by now, probably made in USA and
> sold to them by Democrats, and probably also pre-programmed with all the
> best strategic points in the USA. As bad as Bush was, he was probably at
> least 100 X better than the Democraps that ran against him. Perhaps the
> people didn't vote as much for Bush as they did against what the Democrats
> had to offer!
>
> RogerN

Roger, do you really believe that, or are you just parroting your
favorite winger talk show host or web site?

On what do you base your probability assessments?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 8:56 pm
From: "Steve B"

"Steve B" <deserttraver@fishymail.net> wrote in message
news:hoijn3$62d$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:56:32 -0700, Steve B wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll meet you at the corner of Pecos and Tropicana at 1 PM. I have a big
>> red Dodge Ram 2500 pickup. See you then.
>>
>> Steve
>
> Panhandling?

I was there today. Where were you, you cowardly piece of shit?

Steve

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 10:02 pm
From: Larry Jaques

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:01:11 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
<aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> scrawled the following:

>
>Gunner Asch wrote:

>> Democrats Losing Party Members Rapidly According to Poll
>> By Tom White, on March 3rd, 2010, at 1:24 pm

Wunnerful news!

--big snip--
>> Those abandoning the Democrats are angry with the leftist policies and
>> radicalism of the Democratic Party. But while they are angry with the
>> Democrats, they are not exactly falling in love with Republicans.
>
>Nope, the "democrat deserters" are not moving to the rights at all, they
>are remaining in the center as the democratic party moves further to the
>left. They are the centrists who marginally aligned themselves with the
>democrats in opposition to some of the conservatives, but who are not
>about to stick with the democrats as they move further to the left.

I bailed from the Republicans when they shifted over to fringe right
and whacko religionists.

>The real problem in this country is that the majority of the population
>is centrist, but the two political parties have been over run by wingers
>so neither party represents the majority of the population.

Pre-CISELY! Nor did the Green nor Libertarian parties come close to
filling my needs. I kid people about my being a liberally moderate
conservative, but that pretty much describes my makeup. <shrug>

Metal question: Where can I find a used mini-mill, cheap? Y'know,
the type that HF, Sieg, Griz, and Homier sell for $-500.

P.S: Sorry for the on-topic subject at the end.

--
"Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein
-=-=-

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Republican losing streak continues
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/acd15706db55f813?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:16 pm
From: "RogerN"

"Hawke" <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
news:ho7172$kp9$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> Following in the footsteps of their losses in 2006 and 2008, the
> republican party has again suffered a crushing defeat. Despite doing
> everything possible to stop Obama and the Dems from passing health care
> reform, the republicans have failed again. Health care reform has passed.
> So chalk up another loss to the republican party...and the teabaggers. All
> their efforts could not stop the duly elected majority from doing what
> they said they would do if elected. For those who were asking what has
> Obama accomplished in his time in office you now have your answer. So next
> we get to see how bad the republican's predictions of the end of the world
> if the bill passes comes to reality. My prediction is things improve.
>
> Hawke

Looks like Obamacare is taking it's toll on others besides Republicans. Add
a billion dollars to the cost of Obamacare, and that's just from AT&T.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/technology/companies/27phone.html

RogerN

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gino Green Global Man T-Shirt cheap wholesale (http://www.brandtrade10.
com
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/5938535b133924fd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:49 pm
From: guccihandbag

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rush to flee US
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/589453ba81b739ca?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 9:47 pm
From: "John R. Carroll"

Wes wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>
>>> A very simple solution would have been to have one group. Why are
>>> the feds a group and
>>> small business a bunch of very small groups? There is an issue
>>> though.
>>
>> This is what the public option that Republican's reviled was all
>> about.
>> The group would have been that portion of the American public that
>> wanted to be part of the public group.
>>
>> Requiring the public option would be about the same as single payer
>> - the most sensible thing to do if you want to flex a lot of
>> purchasing power.
>
> That part of the American public must be all federal, state, and
> local workers for it to be even the least bit palatable. Military
> exempted.

The "public option" is a group that anyone can choose to enter, or not.

>
>>
>>>
>>> I can see a group being limited if the employer is self insured.
>>> Many Fortune 500
>>> companies are.
>>
>> Yes, the in effect institute their own single payer plan for their
>> work force.
>> They cut out the middle man and have insurance companies compete for
>> the right to administer the group.
>> What you seem to be missing is that if it weren't economical to do
>> this, nobody would and that it's sort of ass backwards for the
>> American public not to do what employers that self insure do.
>
> I understand your point.
>
> But if you are standing and working, you automaticallly are part of a
> lower risk pool, they know that their pool is cheaper to insure.

They can certainly have hiring practices that lead to that result but the
underlying principle is to pocket the insurance companies profit.

>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Where is the rest of the money coming from?
>>>>
>>>> That's your problem.
>>>
>>> That's a bit cold. Glad I don't work for you.
>>>>
>>>>> You giving all your employees a
>>>>> raise so they can fork over the rest of what takes for converage?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but only if I have to. That's the way free markets work Wes
>>>> and with
>>>> 15 million unemployed, I can probably find someone qualified and
>>>> motivated that will work for your wage. I'm even going to hire a
>>>> contractor to come in
>>>> and explain it to you so I don't have to do my own dirty work and
>>>> if I do choose to subsidize your coverage, there is going to be a
>>>> line item for it on your check every week for you to look at.
>
> Don't ever tell that to someone working for you.

Why would I?

>Payback is a bitch
> and often invisible. My employer can get someone to work for less,
> too bad I won't have tickets to watch the results, it would be
> something to watch while eating fat free popcorn.

LOL
What actually ends up happening is that the people that want jobs have them
and the ones that are picky don't.
Your employer isn't in Traverse City because of the Cherry Festival you
know.
They'd be in Auburn Hills if you guys started demanding UAW wages and
benefits.

>
>>>
>>> I'm assuming you are engaging in hyperbole.
>>
>> Hardly. Were the health care markets truly free youd see what chaos
>> and extorsion looked like at first hand.
>
> The system has many distortions. I maintain most of them are created
> by government and now you expect government to correct it. The
> definition of insanity is ...
>
>>
>>
>>> As far as line items. Everything including
>>> the employer part of medicare and ssi should be on the check. I'm
>>> a big fan of everyone
>>> knowing just how much tax they are paying to the state and feds.
>>> Too bad when I buy
>>> something from a store, I can't see how much embeded taxes I'm
>>> paying for an item.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Most of us above room
>>>>> temperature know part of our compensation is not on our W-4 forms.
>>>>
>>>> You'd think that but it isn't actually the case. People percieve
>>>> the value of health care coverage based on their usage, not it's
>>>> cost.
>>>
>>> That is your opinion.
>>
>> Not really. It's an opinion formed by having every insurance carrier
>> I've ever bought group coverage from come in and spend significant
>> time educationg my employees about the value of their coverage and
>> also providing me with ta bunch of tools to reinfoece the message on
>> my own throughout the year.
>
> They are selling a product. I bet your or your salespeople sold your
> product too.

Sure, and our customers paid for it themselves.
As I said earlier, you'd be sensetive to the value of your coverage if you
had to pay for it yourself but you don't.

>
>>
>>> While I carry auto insurance with unlimited medical, I don't hope
>>> to have a car crash to give my insurance a whirl. I doubt any of
>>> us want to die early and
>>> get value out of our life insurance.
>>
>> Eventually, you wouldn't carry medical coverage in conjunction with
>> any of the insurances you buy.
>> In fact, with yearly and lifetime limits removed as part of what's
>> just passed, you might want to look at all or your coverages and see
>> what you can do to eliminate duplication.
>
> Well not carrying the unlimited medical care on every car I own would
> be nice.
>
>>
>> There also wouldn't be a medical component to Workers Compensation
>> coverage. All of these put Americans at a tremendous competetive
>> disadvantage Wes.
>
> I'd like the WC compensation to stay expensive. Don't give a
> business a reason to play fast and loose with my safety.

The liability portion wouldn't change Wes.

>
>>
>>>> You'd be in a different situation were you self employed or a
>>>> contractor because you'd be in the private market.
>>>> Under that set of facts, yes, you could keep your plan if you
>>>> liked it.
>>>
>>> Tax treatment for private contractors sucks. There I bet we see
>>> eye to eye on. I'm all
>>> for extending the same tax treatment to the self employed carrying
>>> their own policy as
>>> those like me that work for a corporation.
>>
>> I'd rather the reverse be true. Health care premiums would go down
>> significantly if the revenue pool were reduced.
>
> If the numbers of groups were reduce? I think you said the same
> thing but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Right now a dollar's worth of premium increases costs you a dollar. Were
that dollar to be a net after tax dollar, you'd see premium increases
moderate.

>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What ought to be increasingly clear to you is that a public option
>>>> or single
>>>> payer system is in your best interests and, as an employer, mine.
>>>> What we have now puts us both at a competitive disadvantage in
>>>> todays world
>>>> marketplace. The only winners are the insurance and pharmaceutical
>>>> industries.
>>>
>>> I'm going to wear my self out on this. Insurance has to respond to
>>> regulation and will
>>> tack on the profit needed to come out whole. They may loose in one
>>> year but the next year
>>> they will adjust.
>>
>> The cost of health care is rising so rapidly because the business
>> model in the health care industry if fee per service driven.
>> The really simple version of this is that medical professionals can
>> create demand whenever they want to and insurance companies LIKE
>> THAT because they simply raise premiums and their percentage of the
>> action stays the same. More Services Provided/Higher costs = Higher
>> Profits. It's that simple.
>>
>> What we need to get to is a model that rewards cost effective
>> equivalent outcomes and penalizes or discourages overuse.
>
> So what if the ailment is a real bitch to treat?

Then it's expensive.

>Will that be like
> people searching for heath care providers looking for someone that
> accepts medicare/medicaid?

No, it will be like doctors not building room additions or a new Lexus by
adding unnecessary procedures. That's what they do now.

>>
>>>
>>> The public option is a system that will administrated by unionized
>>> government workers
>>> sucking at the teat of those that actually pay into our system. It
>>> will stick most of the
>>> population into a single model of heathcare with no opportunity for
>>> experimentation and
>>> change. It will be under constant pressure to keep costs under
>>> control. Good by grand ma
>>> on that one.
>>>
>>> Of course the elite will have their separate system. They always
>>> do.
>>
>> It isn't only "the elite" Wes. It's a matter of priorities.
>> Regardless, you will always be able to do what people the world over
>> do and plus up your coverage on your own.
>
> That had better be part of whatever comes out of this or Gunner might
> not be wrong. ;)

It isn't something that needs to "come out".
You, right now, could by a rider to your coverage if you wanted to pay for
it.

>>> As far as Pharma based in the US, we should not pay a cent more than
>>> Canada or the EU for
>>> the same damn drugs.

We should get the best deal we can negotiate - period.

>
> I'll settle for we don't pay any more than any any other country as I
> stated.

We should get the best deal we can negotiate - period.

>> This law is the dumbest damned thing I've ever seen. Well, almost the
>> dumbest. I've seen some really stupid things in my time.
>> Keeping GM alive, among other things, was dumber.
>
> You give me hope. GM should have died. As far as the doughut hole,
> you know legislation has to be scored by the CBO or what ever it is
> called. The current heathcare bill is jumping similar hoops.

Part D patients will get $250.00 to cover the hole this year and a 50%
discount in 2011.
By 2020, there won't be a hole at all.

>
> I take it you are feeling better and are on the mend.

Some.
I'm just not a cry baby. Pity party's are for other people but thanks for
asking.

--
John R. Carroll

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The True Colours of Teabaggers
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e77fb546fe14b090?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 8:47 pm
From: tankfixer

In article <l4amq5lnj4an7ejjfl77i5n46hoq0c6sha@4ax.com>,
mrLookout@yahoo.com says...
>
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:22:48 -0700, tankfixer <paul.carrier@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <bp8jq51bdi2fk3pg58721n7palppltovo7@4ax.com>,
> >Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om says...
> >>
> >> On 21 Mar 2010 21:21:05 GMT, D Murphy <dmurf154@att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The crowd was far from uniform.
> >>
> >> Let's take away their socialist medicare, unemployment & social security.
> >
> >I always figured you for a facist.
> >Thanks for confirming it
>
> Ahh...so YOU want it but you don't want anyone else to have it!

You are talking about little Cliffy..
He wants to take it away from people he doesn't like.

> Typical narrow minded immature conservative.

Typical leftist liar

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PICTURES of my wire brushing and polishing setup
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2bd20b7802ede923?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 9:36 pm
From: Ignoramus8345

Some pictures of my cleaning setup.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Cleaning-And-Polishing/

I can clean and polish most things, like the ones pictured, in one
minute or so.

The pictures show two items, a Morse 2 shank to Morse 3 hole extender,
and a Morse 5 shell mill holder.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Great Reneger
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8ad78ad9690bc047?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 10:00 pm
From: Steve B

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdKmc9aBELM

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Friday, March 26, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 26 new messages in 18 topics - digest

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