twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 10 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HF hydraulic press Question
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/79ea64bd88472ab4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 8:25 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Apr 8, 9:28 pm, GeoLane at PTD dot NET <GeoLane at PTD dot NET>
wrote:
> I bought the Harbor Freight 20 Ton hydraulic press today.
>
> The table [they refer to it as the apron] rocks on the pins. It's
> twisted. When I hold one end down, there's a 5/32" gap at the
> opposite end. Do they all rock this much? Does it make any
> difference or make it more difficult to line things up to press them
> out?
>
> I tried taking the twist out by clamping one end and pumping the
> hydraulic until the table was flat against the pins, but it just
> returned after pressure was released.
>
> BTW, the 20T press is on sale for $200 currently, and if you look
> around on the net, there's a $20% discount coupon good till next
> December that the store honored. It brings the price down to $160.
> Now is the time to buy if you've needed one.
>
> RWL

Welded frame or bolted frame? Mine has a welded frame, the only
troubles I've had with it were because the floor was uneven
underneath. I checked all the holes with the table/apron at assembly
and they're good. Store sale price here was $179 last month and I
used a 20% coupon when I got mine. Sale price back then was around
$160. Actually came out to about $20 more than the 12 tonner price
that day by using the coupon.

If you can't get it straightened up, take it back for a swap, one
reason I deal with the stores and not mail-order on the big stuff. If
it's not straight now, don't keep hoping it'll straighten up by
itself, it won't. Chink QC is a crapshoot.

Stan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Who will be the first?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f434d5963fd21822?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 8:25 am
From: wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 01:58:36 -0500, Don Foreman
<dforeman@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:02:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
><huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:

>>Civility is the issue -- and not just in the sense of helping old ladies
>>across the street. The level of civility in a society is a reflection of
>>whether it's healthy and growing, or sick and dying. When we openly
>>advocate, or even cheer for, violence against others over politics, or
>>religion, or almost everything else except violence itself, we're sick and
>>dying. The world has many such sick societies. I hope we never descend to
>>that level.

>I do think you could be more effective if you presented differently,

Yeah, Ed, you need to take some classes in loquacious sophistry if you
ever want to be a professional writer like Don. :-)

>but that's just my mealymouthed opinion.

You shoulda' listened to your mom when she told you not to speak with
your mouth full.

Wayne

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mars Direct, or getting there is half the fun.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/f278042885f73a5b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 8:29 am
From: wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net

On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:23:58 -0700, "Bill McKee"
<bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
><wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:bpsrr5daof81ou795980ln6kpqdm2peelt@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:21:10 -0700, "Bill McKee"
>> <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>>>news:inhpr5dkio92q01g6nvohuisjftva6fe1i@4ax.com...
>>>> On 07 Apr 2010 16:41:22 GMT, steamer <steamer@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Going to Mars is easier than dealing with poverty.
>>>>
>>>> "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things,
>>>> not because they are easy, but because they are hard"
>>>>
>>>> If dealing with poverty is too hard, then how about a cap on school
>>>> class size? Or a guarantee that even the poorest will have good access
>>>> to broadband? Both of those would be far more bang for the buck than
>>>> Mars.
>>>>
>>>>> Also if Earth
>>>>>gets pasted with a big enough rock poverty won't be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> Now you're talkin'. Whoda' thunk that buying astronomically-priced
>>>> <chuckle> bagels was an investment in asteroid avoidance?
>>>>
>>>>>Priorities.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>How about requiring teachers to be able to teach? I am the last of the
>>>50's
>>>generation. Graduated HS in 1961. We had large classes, learned or were
>>>held back. Papers were graded, and we felt bad if we got a bad grade. So
>>>we studied harder or took easier classes.
>>
>> OK so far.
>>
>>> We put man on the moon, etc.
>>
>> Are you saying that 50's teaching put a man on the moon? Because I
>> always thought it had more to do with spending upwards of 1% of GDP.
>>
>>>Class size is strawman in the school argument.
>>
>> Nonsense. I already posted a link to disprove that notion.
>>
>>> Holding back kids and
>>>holding parents and teachers accountable is what is required. Now there
>>>are
>>>no shop classes and some places have a 75% dropout rate for males.
>>
>> Those things are good, but they won't make the difference by
>> themselves. School expenses are way up (how many metal detectors,
>> police, slip and falls, etc. did your school pay for?), their budgets
>> are squeezed well past the long-term damage threshold, and too many
>> voters believe that any petty complaint they can think of is a good
>> reason to let schools deteriorate further. Case in point.
>> http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=37131&TM=37724.33
>>
>> Wayne
>
>You are proof that they graduate morons these days.

My last school day was in 1970. Although I did visit a bit since then
in search of part-time employees.

> Your link proves
>nothing as to class size. Is an opinion.

LOL Yeah, what a waste doing studies and analysis when they could
have simply posted the question to Usenet to get a declaration from a
60's grad.

> How about they require teachers
>to be able to teach?

What *are* those teachers doing these days? Please enlighten us.

> And yes, my generation of school graduates put man on
>the moon. Was not the money. We waste more money than that on Congress
>theses days. And we get no bang for the buck. Did not matter how much
>money you threw at the problem of space travel, required people with brains
>and education to develop the equipment and calculate the trajectories.

Why not follow your argument to its logical <chuckle> conclusion? If
only morons have graduated since your time, and money isn't the issue
with space travel, then just get a few of your fellow 60's braniacs
together to develop some equipment and trajectories, and then head
out. Don't forget to install a trunk for carrying back all the
valuable resources and bridge-eliminating secrets.

Wayne

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:04 am
From: Ed Rinehart

cavelamb > wrote:
> On 4/8/2010 12:22 AM, Eregon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Now all you have to do is to bribe enough elected officials to get this
>> passed through both houses AND get Nobama to sign it.
>>
>> Good Luck!<grin>
>
>
> Yeah right!
>
> If's just pure fantasy...
>
>

It would take a Jeffersonian reboot.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:53 am
From: steamer

In rec.crafts.metalworking Buerste <buerste@buerste.com> wrote:

>"Whatever you subsidize, you get more of. Whatever you tax, you get less
>of."
--I like that! Actually 'we' *will* get to the Moon; by that I mean
Earthlings. They just won't be Americans. My money's on the Chinese.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Blue Cross socks us
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : $23,000/yr!! ...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

==============================================================================
TOPIC: US lacks expertise, China to build high speed rail in California
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/80a843cd1f531f5f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:31 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

William Wixon wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> news:VLWdnQvqQsmwsyLWnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Ignoramus21954 wrote:
>>> kind of shocking and sad. I have a feeling that they will not build
>>> anything due to the typical reasons.
>>>
>>>
>>
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html?src=me&ref=business
>>
>> "G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in the
>> next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much more
>> ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in the
>> next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes, mainly
>> high-speed routes, according to
>> G.E. "
>>
>> This is another reminder of the costs of protecting the carbon based
>> energy
>> industry. China will spend $300 million on their infrastructure and
>> we'll spend an equal amount, much more really, on tax subsidized
>> petroleum products and ethanol.
>> Cheap gasoline is producing intellectual, technological, and
>> industrial poverty while simultaneously subsidizing ME oil producers.
>>
>> It's a shame, and shameful.
>> How embarrasing.
>>
>>
>
>
> i responded privately to someone about the "mars mission" thread
> mentioning upgrading the u.s. rail system would be a better way to
> spend the money they'd spend on a manned mission to mars.
> or exploring the oceans.
>

National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make Mars
habitable.
It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we waited of
running the hardware that would be necessary to generate an atmosphere and
rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in other words, but hardly an
undertaking for a society of impatient's.
Congressional elections occur every two years.

On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.

--
John R. Carroll

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 8:37 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Apr 9, 10:00 am, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
> RBnDFW wrote:
> > John R. Carroll wrote:
> >> Ignoramus21954 wrote:
> >>> kind of shocking and sad. I have a feeling that they will not build
> >>> anything due to the typical reasons.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html?src=me&...
>
>
>
> >> "G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in the
> >> next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much more
> >> ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in the
> >> next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes, mainly
> >> high-speed routes, according to G.E. "
>
> > Where the hell did California find $13 Billion ???
>
> $13 billion dolars is pretty modest for an economy the size of California's
> but what the article says is that the amount spent BY THE ENTIRE COUNTRY
> will be $13 billion and over five years, a trivial amount given that America
> will be an $80 trillion economy in the same period.
>
> Bush spent $185 billion to bail out AIG, $30 billion on Bear Sterns, and
> $700 billion on TARP.
>
> As I said, this is a complete humiliation.
>
> --
> John R. Carroll

There's some slush in one of the monster bills for "high-speed rail"
in about 15 locales. It'll vanish into the pockets of various Beltway
Bandits for "studies" with some given to deserving Congresscritters
for their campaigns and nothing will get built. CO is supposedly one
area slated for it, you could probably give everyone in the state a
Lexus AND rebuild all the highway bridges for what they want to spend.

The problem with high-speed rail is that you need dedicated rail
lines, not freight-ways with passenger traffic on top. No private
company will fork out the bucks that's going to cost, just doing the
environmental studies would chew up billions. Return on investment is
iffy, too. The profits are in bulk freight, not passenger traffic.

Stan

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:55 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

stans4@prolynx.com wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:00 am, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>> RBnDFW wrote:
>>> John R. Carroll wrote:
>>>> Ignoramus21954 wrote:
>>>>> kind of shocking and sad. I have a feeling that they will not
>>>>> build anything due to the typical reasons.
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html?src=me&...
>>
>>
>>
>>>> "G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in
>>>> the next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much
>>>> more ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in
>>>> the next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes,
>>>> mainly high-speed routes, according to G.E. "
>>
>>> Where the hell did California find $13 Billion ???
>>
>> $13 billion dolars is pretty modest for an economy the size of
>> California's but what the article says is that the amount spent BY
>> THE ENTIRE COUNTRY will be $13 billion and over five years, a
>> trivial amount given that America will be an $80 trillion economy in
>> the same period.
>>
>> Bush spent $185 billion to bail out AIG, $30 billion on Bear Sterns,
>> and $700 billion on TARP.
>>
>> As I said, this is a complete humiliation.
>
> There's some slush in one of the monster bills for "high-speed rail"
> in about 15 locales. It'll vanish into the pockets of various Beltway
> Bandits for "studies" with some given to deserving Congresscritters
> for their campaigns and nothing will get built. CO is supposedly one
> area slated for it, you could probably give everyone in the state a
> Lexus AND rebuild all the highway bridges for what they want to spend.

Rebuilding America's highway infrastructure is a $1.5 trillion dollar deal,
and that was one of the lower estimates I've seen.
We ought to do that as well. In fact, we ought to have been doing it right
along.

>
> The problem with high-speed rail is that you need dedicated rail
> lines, not freight-ways with passenger traffic on top. No private
> company will fork out the bucks that's going to cost, just doing the
> environmental studies would chew up billions.

We have a bunch of private freeways here in California that cost more. They
were built as bonded projects, which always impressed me as being very
stupid. Public money funding private toll roads - sheesh.

>Return on investment is
> iffy, too. The profits are in bulk freight, not passenger traffic.

Sure they are if you only have a bulk freight rail system<G>

--
John R. Carroll

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:01 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:FeydncSJ5ZfX1SLWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> William Wixon wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>> news:VLWdnQvqQsmwsyLWnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> Ignoramus21954 wrote:
>>>> kind of shocking and sad. I have a feeling that they will not build
>>>> anything due to the typical reasons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html?src=me&ref=business
>>>
>>> "G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in the
>>> next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much more
>>> ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in the
>>> next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes, mainly
>>> high-speed routes, according to
>>> G.E. "
>>>
>>> This is another reminder of the costs of protecting the carbon based
>>> energy
>>> industry. China will spend $300 million on their infrastructure and
>>> we'll spend an equal amount, much more really, on tax subsidized
>>> petroleum products and ethanol.
>>> Cheap gasoline is producing intellectual, technological, and
>>> industrial poverty while simultaneously subsidizing ME oil producers.
>>>
>>> It's a shame, and shameful.
>>> How embarrasing.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> i responded privately to someone about the "mars mission" thread
>> mentioning upgrading the u.s. rail system would be a better way to
>> spend the money they'd spend on a manned mission to mars.
>> or exploring the oceans.
>>
>
> National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make Mars
> habitable.
> It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we waited of
> running the hardware that would be necessary to generate an atmosphere and
> rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in other words, but hardly an
> undertaking for a society of impatient's.
> Congressional elections occur every two years.
>
> On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.
>
> --
> John R. Carroll

And what would we have if we colonized it? Cleveland. We already have
Cleveland. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:14 am
From: Eregon

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
news:FeydncSJ5ZfX1SLWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com:

> National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make Mars
> habitable.
> It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we
> waited of running the hardware that would be necessary to generate an
> atmosphere and rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in other
> words, but hardly an undertaking for a society of impatient's.
> Congressional elections occur every two years.
>
> On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.

Since (under the present policies at any rate) the Chinese will be
picking up the tab, what's the downside?

After all, they're the ones who are exporting their population all around
the Pacific Rim already and would, most likely, jump at the chance to
provide the population for multiple Mars Colonies.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 10:14 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

Ed Huntress wrote:
>
> And what would we have if we colonized it?

Martian's!

>Cleveland. We already have
> Cleveland. d8-)

Yeah well, there is that and Cleveland has a lot of company these days.

--
John R. Carroll

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 10:18 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

Eregon wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
> news:FeydncSJ5ZfX1SLWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
>> National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make Mars
>> habitable.
>> It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we
>> waited of running the hardware that would be necessary to generate an
>> atmosphere and rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in other
>> words, but hardly an undertaking for a society of impatient's.
>> Congressional elections occur every two years.
>>
>> On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.
>
> Since (under the present policies at any rate) the Chinese will be
> picking up the tab, what's the downside?

America would continue to look more and more like China in terms of living
standards.

--
John R. Carroll

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:29 am
From: Eregon

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
news:1M6dnbvu_9rFziLWnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@giganews.com:

> Eregon wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
>> news:FeydncSJ5ZfX1SLWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>
>>> National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make Mars
>>> habitable.
>>> It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we
>>> waited of running the hardware that would be necessary to generate
>>> an atmosphere and rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in
>>> other words, but hardly an undertaking for a society of impatient's.
>>> Congressional elections occur every two years.
>>>
>>> On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.
>>
>> Since (under the present policies at any rate) the Chinese will be
>> picking up the tab, what's the downside?
>
> America would continue to look more and more like China in terms of
> living standards.
>
>
>

That has been the goal of the Democrats since Lyndon Johnson became
President.

According to the party's leading economic theorists the reason for the
adverse Balance of Payments (imports higher than exports) was that, quite
simply, the US Standard of Living was too high and had to be reduced
BELOW that of the countries from whom the US imported goods. In this way
the US "consumer" (individual or corporation) could not afford to
purchase imported goods but other countries would eagerly purchase our
exports.

This theory matches what China has done: few, if any, imports other than
raw materials with many exports.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:37 am
From: RBnDFW

John R. Carroll wrote:
> RBnDFW wrote:
>> John R. Carroll wrote:
>>> Ignoramus21954 wrote:
>>>> kind of shocking and sad. I have a feeling that they will not build
>>>> anything due to the typical reasons.
>>>>
>>>>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html?src=me&ref=business
>>> "G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in the
>>> next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much more
>>> ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in the
>>> next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes, mainly
>>> high-speed routes, according to G.E. "
>> Where the hell did California find $13 Billion ???
>
> $13 billion dolars is pretty modest for an economy the size of California's
> but what the article says is that the amount spent BY THE ENTIRE COUNTRY
> will be $13 billion and over five years, a trivial amount given that America
> will be an $80 trillion economy in the same period.
>
> Bush spent $185 billion to bail out AIG, $30 billion on Bear Sterns, and
> $700 billion on TARP.
>
> As I said, this is a complete humiliation.
>

As Sen Dirksen once said "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon
you're talking real money"

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 10:48 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

RBnDFW wrote:
> John R. Carroll wrote:
>> RBnDFW wrote:
>>> John R. Carroll wrote:
>>>> Ignoramus21954 wrote:
>>>>> kind of shocking and sad. I have a feeling that they will not
>>>>> build anything due to the typical reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html?src=me&ref=business
>>>> "G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in
>>>> the next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much
>>>> more ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in
>>>> the next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes,
>>>> mainly high-speed routes, according to G.E. "
>>> Where the hell did California find $13 Billion ???
>>
>> $13 billion dolars is pretty modest for an economy the size of
>> California's but what the article says is that the amount spent BY
>> THE ENTIRE COUNTRY will be $13 billion and over five years, a
>> trivial amount given that America will be an $80 trillion economy
>> in the same period.
>>
>> Bush spent $185 billion to bail out AIG, $30 billion on Bear Sterns,
>> and $700 billion on TARP.
>>
>> As I said, this is a complete humiliation.
>>
>
> As Sen Dirksen once said "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon
> you're talking real money"

Penny wise and pound foolish is more appropriate.

--
John R. Carroll

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 10:56 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

Eregon wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
> news:1M6dnbvu_9rFziLWnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
>> Eregon wrote:
>>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
>>> news:FeydncSJ5ZfX1SLWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>>
>>>> National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make
>>>> Mars habitable.
>>>> It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we
>>>> waited of running the hardware that would be necessary to generate
>>>> an atmosphere and rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in
>>>> other words, but hardly an undertaking for a society of
>>>> impatient's. Congressional elections occur every two years.
>>>>
>>>> On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.
>>>
>>> Since (under the present policies at any rate) the Chinese will be
>>> picking up the tab, what's the downside?
>>
>> America would continue to look more and more like China in terms of
>> living standards.
>>
>>
>>
>
> That has been the goal of the Democrats since Lyndon Johnson became
> President.
>
> According to the party's leading economic theorists the reason for the
> adverse Balance of Payments (imports higher than exports) was that,
> quite simply, the US Standard of Living was too high and had to be
> reduced BELOW that of the countries from whom the US imported goods.
> In this way the US "consumer" (individual or corporation) could not
> afford to purchase imported goods but other countries would eagerly
> purchase our exports.

I hadn't heard that one. We must be listening to and reading different
economic theorists.
Our manufacturing balance of trade with the Chinese is about a wash right
now and has been.
In fact, if you take out imported oil, America is in OK condition in the
current accounts arena.
The Chinese have been buying a raw materials and high value add stuff from
us and we've been importing their crap.
That is obviously going to change if we can't bring our own high value added
capacity competitively - or in this case, at all.

>
> This theory matches what China has done: few, if any, imports other
> than raw materials with many exports.

OK
Wrong and untrue, but Okie Dokey.

--
John R. Carroll

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 10:07 am
From: Eregon

"John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
news:tLmdnZ-4Lpi4wSLWnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@giganews.com:

> Eregon wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
>> news:1M6dnbvu_9rFziLWnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>
>>> Eregon wrote:
>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in
>>>> news:FeydncSJ5ZfX1SLWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>>>
>>>>> National Geographic did a program on what it would take to make
>>>>> Mars habitable.
>>>>> It's possible, but would take more than a hundred years while we
>>>>> waited of running the hardware that would be necessary to generate
>>>>> an atmosphere and rudimentary plant life to take hold. Doable, in
>>>>> other words, but hardly an undertaking for a society of
>>>>> impatient's. Congressional elections occur every two years.
>>>>>
>>>>> On our present course we'd be preparing Mars for the Chinese.
>>>>
>>>> Since (under the present policies at any rate) the Chinese will be
>>>> picking up the tab, what's the downside?
>>>
>>> America would continue to look more and more like China in terms of
>>> living standards.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That has been the goal of the Democrats since Lyndon Johnson became
>> President.
>>
>> According to the party's leading economic theorists the reason for
>> the adverse Balance of Payments (imports higher than exports) was
>> that, quite simply, the US Standard of Living was too high and had to
>> be reduced BELOW that of the countries from whom the US imported
>> goods. In this way the US "consumer" (individual or corporation)
>> could not afford to purchase imported goods but other countries would
>> eagerly purchase our exports.
>
> I hadn't heard that one. We must be listening to and reading different
> economic theorists.

You weren't paying much, if any, attention to the news media during the
'70s.

This was reported as the primary reason for the hyperinflation instigated
as n integral feature of LBJ's "Great Society".

> Our manufacturing balance of trade with the Chinese is about a wash
> right now and has been.

Manufacturing is only a small part - think "financial" and you'll see a
major imbalance.

> In fact, if you take out imported oil, America is in OK condition in
> the current accounts arena.

Dream on.

> The Chinese have been buying a raw materials and high value add stuff
> from us and we've been importing their crap.

What "stuff"? They've been doing most of their "shopping" in Europe.

> That is obviously going to change if we can't bring our own high value
> added capacity competitively - or in this case, at all.
>

What do we have left that they haven't already bought or stolen?

>>
>> This theory matches what China has done: few, if any, imports other
>> than raw materials with many exports.
>
> OK
> Wrong and untrue, but Okie Dokey.
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Battery drill external battery pack
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2a3b10825de0128f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 8:47 am
From: Robert Roland

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:46:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Have you ever built a battery drill, using a dead
>cordless drill, and external battery pack?

No, but I have, on a couple of occasions, cracked open the original
battery and replaced the cells inside.

>Most Sub-C that I've found in drills are 1600 mA
>hours,

That must have been at least 20 years ago. I just bought some 4200mAh
NiMH ones. That is suspiciously high, though. Around 3000mAh is more
common.

>Plus, being able to test and
>replace individual cells as they failed.

There's no point. Once the first cell dies, the rest are not far
behind. Also, an automatic charger could get confused if the battery
had a mix of fresh and old cells. In the long run, it's much better
economy to replace all cells at the same time.
--
RoRo

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Mil pay vs Social Security
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2e5a9ed882cd17b4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 8:53 am
From: Jim Chandler

On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 22:05:40 -0500, Comrade technomaNge
<piracy@microsoft.com> wrote:

>Jim Chandler wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes. I retired in 1988 and have been getting AF retirement since then
>> and I started SS in 2006 when I turned 62 (I wasn't waiting for 66
>> (this year) to start). I'd rather get a smaller amount for a longer
>> period of time than a larger payment for a shorter period. I
>> contributed to SS foe years during my civilian employments. Somebody
>> told you wrong.
>>
>> Jim
>
>
>Thanks for the info, Jim.
>
>Before I take any action on this, I'll wait for a couple of more
>data points.
>
>
>Comrade technomaNge

if you ever contributed to SS during civilian employment, you are
entitled to draw SS. How much will depend on your pay during that
time and your age when you start drawing it. Check with your nearest
SS office and they can tell you exactly how much you are entitled to.

Jim

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reducing diameter of straight drill bits
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/7262d560ac9bab6e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:12 am
From: Jim Wilkins

I slightly opened up the holes in truck leaf springs that dulled my
drill bits by making a half-round piloted step drill out of O-1. I
can't find it right now but I think light blue was the right temper,
on the third try. It cut reasonably well without any back rake, using
a lot of pressure. The truck's owner and I took turns crawling
underneath and heaving on the drill.

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A new "constitutional right"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8e77e80070fe5b42?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:28 am
From: "RD (The Sandman)"

Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in
news:hpmcev$usv$4@speranza.aioe.org:

> On 4/6/2010 6:38 AM, Zombywoof wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:08:07 -0700, Hawke
>> <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>>> Not me, I am a little old.
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't you hear about some of the old farts that military was
>>>>> taking into the service during the Iraq war? I saw some folks that
>>>>> were in their seventies. Old people have always participated in
>>>>> wars.
>>>>
>>>> Mostly voluntarily. I seriously doubt many of them were
>>>> conscripted.
>>>
>>> This was back when the Iraq war was young so it was a number of
>>> years ago. But I recall seeing some really old people being recalled
>>> for service. The point is still valid though. If the government
>>> needs you it can and will conscript you.
>>>
>> Actually no, they weren't really "conscriptions, but recalls.
>> Military Service in this country is for 30-years even if you take
>> your retirement @ twenty you still have another 10-years of service
>> liability hanging out there. There are also numerous people who stay
>> in Guard& Reserve Units well into their 60's. Commissioned
>> "Regular" Officer's are subject to recall as long as they do not
>> resign their Commission which many do not, or simply forget that if
>> they do not they can be recalled.
>>>
>>>> In the
>>>>> last days of the Nazi regime when the Russians were taking Berlin
>>>>> all they were fighting were teen age boys and old men. Old men
>>>>> have gotten in on the fun for thousands of years. You could drive
>>>>> a vehicle or fire a M2 from a half track couldn't you? I bet you
>>>>> could, so we could use you in a pinch.
>>>>
>>>> And I would volunteer to be there, however, as I noted above, I
>>>> seriously doubt that the government would draft me.
>>>
>>> So do I but then we aren't in a state like Russia was when the Nazis
>>> were invading. If we faced something like that you shouldn't be
>>> surprised to be drafted as well as everything you own of value to
>>> the war effort.
>>>
>> The same people who are the ones who willingly do most things
>> wouldn't have to be drafted as they would already be doing their
>> part. It's the one's hiding under their bed that you have to go&
>> find.
>
>
> That may be, but if the only people that you could have in your army
> are the ones who would join voluntarily, you wouldn't have a very big
> army. And if they could leave when they wanted to you would have a
> REALLY small army once the shooting started. Which is why if you want
> to have a big war you have to conscript people.

We already have a volunteer army, Hawke. Have had since 1973. You seem
to confuse a voluntary enlistment with a simple day to day commitment.
That isn't how it works.

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

You simply have to stay in shape. My grandmother started
walking 5 miles a day when she was 60. She is now 97 and
we have no idea where she is.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:32 am
From: "RD (The Sandman)"

Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in news:hpme6e$2la$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

> On 4/7/2010 8:26 PM, tankfixer wrote:
>> In article<Xns9D5368E159101hopewell@216.196.97.130>, "RD (The
>> Sandman)" says...
>>>
>>> Hawke<davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in
>>> news:hpgfqi$uu3$1@speranza.aioe.org:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I agree, but like I told you already, nobody is going to go to
jail
>>>>>> for not buying insurance. That's specifically in the bill. I've
seen
>>>>>> it myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you should have no problem producing it.
>>>>
>>>> If somebody showed you a quote from the book War and Peace but
didn't
>>>> give you the page number of the quote how hard would it be for you
to
>>>> go to the book and find that one quote? Pretty darn hard. That's not
>>>> as hard as finding a specific part of a 2,000 page piece of
>>>> legislation.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. Simply bring up the bill and use "find". I am certain you
>>> remember some of the words used. ;)
>>>
>>
>> Not only that by President Obama apparently thinks that jail time is
in
>> the bill since he refuses to rule it out.
>>
>> Or is Hawke trying to say the President doesn't know what he signed...
>>
>
>
> I doubt if Obama knows everything in that bill. It is over 2,000 pages
> long. Could anyone know everything that is in it? I doubt it so I doubt
> he knows it all either. But what I have said once and I'll say it
again.
> I saw on the Ed Show where they were discussing the part about what
> happens if you don't pay the fine for not buying insurance and in the
> bill it specifically said there would not be any other penalty for not
> paying the fine. No jail time or no further penalty. Since then I have
> looked at the actual bill and tried to find that provision. I couldn't
> find it.

Because it isn't there.

But since I already saw the passage I know it's there I just
> couldn't find it among the 2,000 pages of text. I spent quite a while
> looking for it and as I said, I don't have the time to spend hours to
> find a specific few lines in a gigantic bill just to prove it to you
> people. I know what it says because they showed it on TV.

They also had the IRS Commissioner on TV saying that it would be a
penalty added to your income tax. Are you saying that we don't have to
pay our income tax?

I just don't
> know where in the bill to look for that part. So if you want to find it
> go for it. I couldn't even find that section that dealt with the
> individual mandates. The bill is huge and very comprehensive. Finding a
> specific part in there isn't easy unless you know where to look and I
> don't. So if someone else can find it I'd love to have you tell me
where
> to look. The one thing I did hear is that the way they would enforce
the
> mandate is through income tax refunds.

The most likely person not to buy healthcare is also in the 40% that
doesn't pay any tax. Ergo, the only hold they would have would be to
hold up his/her return. However, many don't even get that.

But like I said, I couldn't find
> the part of the bill dealing with this issue.
>
> Hawke
>

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

You simply have to stay in shape. My grandmother started
walking 5 miles a day when she was 60. She is now 97 and
we have no idea where she is.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:34 am
From: grey_ghost471-newsgroups@yahoo.com (Gray Ghost)

"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
news:Xns9D55610529BADhopewell@216.196.97.130:

> Hawke <davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in news:hpme6e$2la$1
> @speranza.aioe.org:
>
>> On 4/7/2010 8:26 PM, tankfixer wrote:
>>> In article<Xns9D5368E159101hopewell@216.196.97.130>, "RD (The
>>> Sandman)" says...
>>>>
>>>> Hawke<davesmithers@digitalpath.net> wrote in
>>>> news:hpgfqi$uu3$1@speranza.aioe.org:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree, but like I told you already, nobody is going to go to
>>>>>>> jail for not buying insurance. That's specifically in the bill.
>>>>>>> I've seen it myself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you should have no problem producing it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If somebody showed you a quote from the book War and Peace but
>>>>> didn't give you the page number of the quote how hard would it be for
>>>>> you to go to the book and find that one quote? Pretty darn hard.
>>>>> That's not as hard as finding a specific part of a 2,000 page piece
>>>>> of legislation.
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. Simply bring up the bill and use "find". I am certain you
>>>> remember some of the words used. ;)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not only that by President Obama apparently thinks that jail time is
>>> in the bill since he refuses to rule it out.
>>>
>>> Or is Hawke trying to say the President doesn't know what he signed...
>>>
>>
>>
>> I doubt if Obama knows everything in that bill. It is over 2,000 pages
>> long. Could anyone know everything that is in it? I doubt it so I doubt
>> he knows it all either. But what I have said once and I'll say it
>> again. I saw on the Ed Show where they were discussing the part about
>> what happens if you don't pay the fine for not buying insurance and in
>> the bill it specifically said there would not be any other penalty for
>> not paying the fine. No jail time or no further penalty. Since then I
>> have looked at the actual bill and tried to find that provision. I
>> couldn't find it.
>
> Because it isn't there.
>
> But since I already saw the passage I know it's there I just
>> couldn't find it among the 2,000 pages of text. I spent quite a while
>> looking for it and as I said, I don't have the time to spend hours to
>> find a specific few lines in a gigantic bill just to prove it to you
>> people. I know what it says because they showed it on TV.
>
> They also had the IRS Commissioner on TV saying that it would be a
> penalty added to your income tax. Are you saying that we don't have to
> pay our income tax?
>
> I just don't
>> know where in the bill to look for that part. So if you want to find it
>> go for it. I couldn't even find that section that dealt with the
>> individual mandates. The bill is huge and very comprehensive. Finding a
>> specific part in there isn't easy unless you know where to look and I
>> don't. So if someone else can find it I'd love to have you tell me
>> where to look. The one thing I did hear is that the way they would
>> enforce the mandate is through income tax refunds.
>
> The most likely person not to buy healthcare is also in the 40% that
> doesn't pay any tax. Ergo, the only hold they would have would be to
> hold up his/her return. However, many don't even get that.

Er, what about the half of the country that doesn't pay any taxes to start
with?

>
> But like I said, I couldn't find
>> the part of the bill dealing with this issue.
>>
>> Hawke
>>
>
>
>

--
God, guns and guts made America great.

And Janet Napolitano nervous.

Which should tell you all you need to know about Democrats. How can one
restore America to greatness if greatness makes you uncomfortable?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: #OT# Recession is over!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/be01c68a60161988?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 9:54 am
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Apr 9, 12:56 am, Hawke <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
The fact is that "charitable" giving
> by private individuals is only a drop in the bucket compared to what the
> government has done.
> Hawke

Any cites for the " Fact "? The government has spent lots of money,
but you need to look at the actual benefits.

Increasing the taxes on high income individuals will not significantly
increase the amount of money the government has to spend. Not enough
high income individuals. But it will significantly reduce the amount
of charity being done.

Dan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Future Space programs Re: Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/57c9c3facffdfb67?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 10:29 am
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Apr 8, 1:31 pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> fired this volley innews:gYednfo9vuQInSPWnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
> > A number of data acquisition and control systems
> > (which included no computers) were built for NASA installations."
>
> Hmmm... that's odd. I bought it at the cape at an auction. It was
> specifically listed as "Apollo launch control 'system'".
>
> I can assure you it wasn't a data-acquisition system. It really was a
> full-up computer.
>
> LLoyd

I have no doubt that it was a full up computer. And can easily
believe it was sold as an " Apollo launch control ' system ' ". But
the RCA 110A computers were the launch computers. They had no
integrated circuits and were bigger at least physically. They were
also 24 bit machines. As I recall they had 8 banks of 8K words.

Dan

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Friday, April 9, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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