twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 12 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

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Today's topics:

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TOPIC: If you are a homo, you likely are Too_Many_Tools.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/624674ca369cc2f7?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:05 am
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5a160f86-933d-423f-92b2-ee9018c00bd4@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> Posted on Fri, Sep. 18, 2009
>

not metal related doofus

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:07 am
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d41193d4-e49c-4ec2-b770-338b892efe04@h35g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 21, 12:45 am, Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:09:46 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
>>
>> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >It it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it likely is a racist
>> >conservative.
>>
>> How is "If you are a Conservative, you likely are a racist." one bit
>> different than the equally stupid equation "If you are a Liberal, you
>> likely are gay."?
>
> Why don't you tell us Winston?
>
Us? You and your mommies need to be reminded again?

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 4:01 am
From: Klaus Shadenfreude

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:05:32 -0500, "Chief Egalitarian"
<Egal@legal_egal.law> wrote:

>
>
>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:5a160f86-933d-423f-92b2-ee9018c00bd4@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>> Posted on Fri, Sep. 18, 2009
>>
>
>not metal related doofus

It has something to do with the metal plate in his head.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is Sarah Palin going bald?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ea159f271de50845?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:15 am
From: Kadaitcha Man

"Chief Egalitarian", thou indecent double heart. Thou hath out-villiain'd
villainy so far that the rarity redeems thee. Ye reviled:

> Nah, her ass is nice and lean, like a good conservative woman.

http://myjohnson.com/pix/sarah-palin_rush_limbaugh.jpg

--
I have defined no god. And when I do need to define some god for the
purposes of discussing its nature with atheists I always define the
supposed some god in the very same concrete and arbitrary terms, without
variation:

God = Metaphysical X

Watching you idiot atheists witlessly pinning your own lunatic
assumptions and irrational perceptions onto it then attempting to argue
against your very own deranged Frankenstein-like creation with utterly
b0rked illogic is a never-ending source of great hilarity.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The True Colours of Teabaggers
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/e77fb546fe14b090?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:28 am
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

"Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
news:0bebq550j4pdb7idrnbvnf8vbeliksqen5@4ax.com...
>
> http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/20/1826688/congressmen-are-abused-by-protesters.html
> [
> .... shouted obscenities at members of the Congressional Black Caucus and
> spat
> on Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, a Missouri Democrat.
>
> The protesters used a racial epithet toward Rep. John Lewis, a Georgia
> Democrat,
> and confronted a gay congressman with taunts.
> ....
> A colleague who was accompanying Lewis said people in the crowd responded
> by
> saying "Kill the bill," then the n-word.
> ....
> "It was a chorus," Cleaver said. "In a way, I feel sorry for those people
> who
> are doing this nasty stuff - they're being whipped up. I decided I
> wouldn't be
> angry with any of them."
>
> Cleaver's office said later in a statement that he was also spat upon and
> that
> Capitol Police had arrested his assailant.
> ....
> ]
>
> Can you spell "faux "news"" or "rethugs"?
> Or "Nazi racists"?
>
>
> http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2010/03/make-that-the-nas-tea-party.html#ixzz0imz9qjFq
> [
> And racism and gay-bashing apparently wasn't all. Add anti-Semitism to the
> list.
>
> A staffer in Rep. Anthony Weiner's office reported a stream of hostile
> encounters with tea partiers roaming the halls of Congress. The less
> harmful
> stuff was mockery. But they left a couple of notes behind. One asked what
> Rahm
> Emanuel did with Weiner in the shower, in a reference to mess around
> ex-Rep Eric
> Massa. It was signed with a swastika, the staffer said. The other note
> called
> the congressman "Schlomo Weiner," among other hate-filled words.
>
> Rep. Jose Serrano was so disturbed, he called to relay his own unpleasant
> encounter with a Tea Party activist who accosted him outside, when Serrano
> went
> for a stroll near the rally.
>
> "The Capitol there was pretty ugly," Serrano sad. "They were shouting,
> 'Don't
> take away my Medicare, we don't want socialism, you're throwing our
> country
> away.'"
>
> "There was a person who saw me go by, and called me a bunch of things, and
> ended
> calling me an elitist pig with a cutesy haircut," Serrano, of the Bronx,
> said.
>
> It wasn't the words so much that bothered the congressman, but the tone
> and
> attitude.
>
> And the words heard by Lewis were especially distasteful to Serrano. Lewis
> is a
> widely respected member of Congress who had his skull fractured by police
> in a
> 1965 civil rights march in Selma, Ala.
>
> "He's the conscience of the Congress," Serrano said.
>
> It all reminded him of the worst reactions to the civil rights movement
> and the
> anti-Vietnam war protests. It was the kind of reaction, he said, that you
> get
> "whenever you're trying to do something really important."
>
> Majority Leader Steny Hoyer fired off a condemnation tonight, saying,
> "Today's
> protests against health insurance reform saw a rash of despicable,
> inflammatory
> behavior, much of it directed at minority Members of Congress."
> ]
> --
> Cliff

trim

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:39 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:28:33 -0500, "Chief Egalitarian"
<Egal@legal_egal.law> wrote:

>> It wasn't the words so much that bothered the congressman, but the tone
>> and
>> attitude.
>>

You mean the Leftist Scum didnt like being hated to the bottom of his
feet?

Pity.

Gunner

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

==============================================================================
TOPIC: An Open Letter From Michael Moore
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/4063f7e0c3819fe7?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:29 am
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

"Audrey" <Bettyboop@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:60rbq55b9mee6cashitvk0nnhtnouheum4@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:34:34 -0400, Cliff
> <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:38:03 -0700, Winston_Smith <not_real@bogus.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Glenn Beck Can F--k Off
>>
>> Good point.
>> Looked like he was selling Gold & calling for riots on Faux yesterday.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ccN_mAN8Rs
> http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Displayblog.aspx?bpid=4843e0b6-7dbc-44d7-be1b-615a35ac155f

trim

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TOPIC: Bob Milby, AKA "Patriot Games," Issues Another Death Threat
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/826b18e766ab2d4a?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:30 am
From: "Chief Egalitarian"

"Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
news:35nbq5h66fbqnaq6ejo3f61hi6chb2ih0m@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:01:52 -0700, Gnome@cold.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:13:55 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
>><CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>(PG NEVER QUITS!)
>>>
>>>True, you'll die a wanker. You ran and hid the last time, what makes you
>>>think anyone will believe your bullshit again. Even with my willing
>>>assistance you failed to show up to carry out your death threat. Now
>>>you're Bozo Filtered and can go fuck yourself.
>>>
>>>Wanker.
>>
>>Aw C'mon Curly
>>
>>Having your very own wanker to poke fun at when things are slow makes
>>the time go by faster.
>>
>>I got Pajama, like I used to have Ultraz, Dana Raffaniello, Knicklas.
>>Now I got poor Pajama. I realize he's not much--but he's so easy.
>
> You could have crazy banquer.
> He's always a hoot.
> --
> Cliff

Would probably be a joy, compared to you. trim

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - work shoes
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/0076210173ec998f?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:31 am
From: "Dave H."

>"John" wrote...
>Here in UK, most postal workers wear Doc Martins.
>I wear safety shoes that cost about £30. They last about a year but
>are waterproof, very comfotable with padded linings and cuffs.
>Obviously I can't help with a supplier.

I'll second Doc Martens, wore them for years as a lineman up and down
ladders, tramping across fields and down streets with ladder on one shoulder
and toolbag in my hand - they're available with steel toecaps, used to last
me upwards of a year a pair. Witha bit of dubbin regularly applied they're
pretty waterproof, and they're rated "Cool" by most subcultures ;) Come in
some funky colours, too - you want fluoro pink, you can get 'em! Only
downside is that they can puncture, repairable with a hot knife, and don't
have a steel midsole, so you can puncture too - not so easily repaired...

Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:40 am
From: Andrew VK3BFA

On Mar 21, 7:50 pm, John <johnmand...@freenetname.co.uk> wrote:
> Here in UK, most postal workers wear Doc Martins.
> I wear safety shoes that cost about £30. They last about a year but
> are waterproof, very comfotable with padded linings and cuffs.
> Obviously I can't help with a supplier.
>
> John

Well put John - I have some doubts about our American Cousins, to even
consider buying SHOES is close to heresy where I come from. Men wear
BOOTS. Working men wear Boots. None of this shoe rubbish - effete
liberal crap. If you wear shoes, you sit on your arse in an office and
dont do very much. (Investment Bankers wear shoes - see where that got
us all!)

Boots are functional - they keep the weather and the nasties out, and
your feet warm and comfortable inside. All else is secondary. But I
do concede, with Globalisation and Free Enterprise etc its becoming
hard to buy a decent pair of boots, ie a pair that will last 3 winters
before they start to leak. Real boots. And elastic sides - none of
this struggling with 5 yards of laces on some fashion crap that looks
like it could storm the walls of Baghdad. Elastic sides mean easy on/
easy off if you have to go inside someones (even your own) house. And
you can pull your feet free of them if you fall and get stuck in the
stirrups when your riding. Distinctly different from the Western and
English styles. Have evolved.

My brand was always Blundstone, made here, my great-grandfather worked
for them. Good quality, well made, consistent. Had a plain leather
pair, and a pair with steel toe caps. But they "offshored" their
production (Gee, dont you just love newspeak) and sacked all the
workers and started bringing in crap ones from half of Asia. Still got
"Since 1885" on the box. Dont know why. Took ages, but found possibly
the last remaining boot manufacturer left here - Red Back - pretty
good so far, but their coming up to the first winter so time will
tell. The steel cap Blundstones are still good for a few more years.

I got 3 pairs of boots, and a pair of slippers the kids got me. They
are

Leather work boot - everyday wear, can wear them out visiting if you
give them a clean.
Leather steel cap workboots - worth it, saves toes (mostly) from
falling 4 jaw chucks - and big chucks too, ones on real lathes.
Dress boots - by R.M.Williams. Cost me $300 , but worth it -
stunningly well crafted, each one is made from a single piece of
leather. Put them on, your feet swoon with the sheer comfortableness.
Will be buried in them.

Anything costing less than $60 is crap. You get what you pay for.
Simple.

I do hear that Redwings are a good boot - no idea, never even seen a
pair. Hope their not made in China now. Doc Martens are good (John -
"bovver boots" - ring a bell) but too expensive here. Can see why
posties like them - they can deal with the "little incidents" on a
posties round.

Thats my slightly irrelevant take on all this. Now, does anyone want
to know about socks, for wearing in boots.

Andrew VK3BFA.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:26 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:50:22 -0400, "Lyndell Thompson"
<lyndell2@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Redwing works good for me tho they are pricey. I wear like a 6" boot . They
>have one of the best insoles in the business. I got about the same thing
>going on, ladders, concrete floors etc and a pin in my left leg. :-)
> Good Luck Lyndell

I agree on Redstones.

I generally buy my footwear at 2nd hand stores. Redwings turn up
occasionally and I snag em for $6-15

Resoling them costs $125+ if they are sent to Redwing, so I generally
have a pair in reserve.

Now several cowboy boot makers make similar boots, such as Niconna, and
I snag them when I find them.

Gunner, with 15 prs of work or cowboy boots in his closet.

>
>"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ho3pmp$pka$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>> My $15 Walmart working man's sneakers are gone flat, again.
>> No cushion, and it's about like being barefoot.
>>
>> I did a froogle search for postal shoes. Those guys on their
>> feet all day, must have good shoes. No joy. Looked for
>> working shoes. Not much to be found.
>>
>> Where does a man buy comfortable shoes that last a couple
>> years, and good for working men who climb ladders, work on
>> cars, and that kind of thing?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christopher A. Young
>> Learn more about Jesus
>> www.lds.org
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 6:17 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Mar 20, 9:30 pm, Ignoramus28888 <ignoramus28...@NOSPAM.
28888.invalid> wrote:
> With shoes, what you pay is what you get, and $15 walmart shoes are
> only shoes in appearance.
>
> i

$12 WalMart sneakers are more comfortable to my abused feet than any
of the the Merrill, Dunham, Chippawa etc boots I have. The steel-toed
Wolverine boots I've been using for logging leave me barely able to
walk in the evening.

The $12 ones last about 6 months unless I kneel down and crack the
sole.

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surface Plates
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/bc2625a5c4711576?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:41 am
From: Andrew VK3BFA

On Mar 21, 7:16 pm, Cliff <Clhuprichguessw...@aoltmovetheperiodc.om>
wrote:
> Surface Plates are often made of granite.
> Why don't they make them from harder rock ?
> --
> Cliff

Granite is a hard rock.
Andrew VK3BFA.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rush to flee US
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/589453ba81b739ca?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 3:52 am
From: Andrew VK3BFA

On Mar 20, 4:53 am, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:02:45 -0700, "Bill Noble"
>
> <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> >"Larry Jaques" <ljaq...@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:pcupp59u5dt79t98jt18qngfqvjtb8scvh@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:20:32 -0700 (PDT), the infamous Andrew VK3BFA
> >> <VK3...@wia.org.au> scrawled the following:
>
> >bunch of mindless junk snipped
>
> Only when a Leftist defines it.
>
> Shrug
>
> "First Law of Leftist Debate
> The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
> that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
> more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
> losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
> homophobe approaches infinity.
>
> This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
> race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
> the subject." Grey Ghost

What day of the week is it Gunner - or is that a leftie plot too.

Andrew VK3BFA.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 4:08 am
From: Andrew VK3BFA

On Mar 21, 1:05 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> Sleep tight.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

Wes - I cant argue with you, you are in a different class. But can I
say

Here in Australia, we have both a government health insurance scheme
funded by a 2.5% levy on taxable income. There are also LOTS of
private health funds, who managed to get a huge subsidy from the last
Conservative government to keep them viable. There is a Gov run.
Private Health Scheme - costs and benefits are a consistent 15% better
than the best other fund. (No CEO, more efficient)

And if your in a big car crash, or need heart surgery NOW, your best
bet will be the public hospital system. They have the gear and the
people to do it.

So. They can co-exist. On the Democracy debate, you said much better
(AND with references) what I was trying to say - ie, learn what sort
of a system you have before going off your brain.

Got an email recently from someone here, saying he was going to have
to wait till he was 65 before he could get anything done about his
skin cancers - it was then that your Medicaid/Medicare(?) kicked in.
Is that a just, equitable health system in action or what?

Andrew VK3BFA.
(aka "Perplexed of Australia")

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 4:30 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

"Andrew VK3BFA" <VK3BFA@wia.org.au> wrote in message
news:795fe9b6-5a9a-4b6d-83a4-07406dccefe9@s2g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

>Got an email recently from someone here, saying he was going to have
>to wait till he was 65 before he could get anything done about his
>skin cancers - it was then that your Medicaid/Medicare(?) kicked in.
>Is that a just, equitable health system in action or what?

You can set aside the "just and equitable" argument and just go with stupid.
This is an excellent example. Your friend could be treated today at a much
lower cost than will be possible tomorrow or the next day.
By the time treament will be covered, your friend will be very sick, the
treatment will be extremely expensive and much less effective.
The public will end up spending a fortune in the future for what will likely
be end of life care rather than a few bucks today.
That's as dumb as it gets and the terror these people experience between now
and the time their coverage begins to kick in isn't something that should be
visited on anyone by their fellows, especialy not given the practical
reality of what will happen at age 65.
It is debilitating to both the work force and society.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:41 am
From: Wes

"John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:

>> As for whether the "concept" is to destroy private insurance, I'm sure
>> there are plenty of people who want to. Like John, I think it's probably
>> inevitable -- not because something else wouldn't work,
>
>Employers are going to drive this dynamic, in my opinion.
>If I can, as an employer, pay a couple of grand per year to the government
>per employee and dump my healt-care costs, I'm going to do so ASAP. I'll
>have to in the end anyway because I'll be competing with people that have.
>Employer based health-care will be as dead as a door nail by Monday morning.

Two grand? Where is the rest of the money coming from? You giving all your employees a
raise so they can fork over the rest of what takes for converage? Most of us above room
temperature know part of our compensation is not on our W-4 forms.

>
>To Wes, that means he'll be in the market through the exchange system and
>what he'll see is that a pool that includes millions of individuals can lead
>to a real cost effective result. He'll also be responsive to even small
>premium increases because he'll have to pay them every month. That will make
>it much harder to raise rates because people will just change plans. As
>things are now, he doesn't either know or care because he's one or two steps
>removed from the process and isn't included in any decision making.

So President Obama's line of "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health
care plan" was a blatant lie?

Wes

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:20 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

"Wes" <clutch@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:IBnpn.110179$Up1.72775@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com...
> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>
>>> As for whether the "concept" is to destroy private insurance, I'm sure
>>> there are plenty of people who want to. Like John, I think it's probably
>>> inevitable -- not because something else wouldn't work,
>>
>>Employers are going to drive this dynamic, in my opinion.
>>If I can, as an employer, pay a couple of grand per year to the government
>>per employee and dump my healt-care costs, I'm going to do so ASAP. I'll
>>have to in the end anyway because I'll be competing with people that have.
>>Employer based health-care will be as dead as a door nail by Monday
>>morning.
>
> Two grand?

That's the "fine", yes, and it's paid to the IRS. You'll never see it
directly.
This assumes that your epmloyer has 50 or more employees.
Otherwise, there isn't a penalty but i will be elgible for a tax credit if I
choose to offer coverage, even if we share the cost.
Small business will finally get a fair shake.

> Where is the rest of the money coming from?

That's your problem.

>You giving all your employees a
> raise so they can fork over the rest of what takes for converage?

Maybe, but only if I have to. That's the way free markets work Wes and with
15 million unemployed, I can probably find someone qualified and motivated
that will work for your wage. I'm even going to hire a contractor to come in
and explain it to you so I don't have to do my own dirty work and if I do
choose to subsidize your coverage, there is going to be a line item for it
on your check every week for you to look at.

> Most of us above room
> temperature know part of our compensation is not on our W-4 forms.

You'd think that but it isn't actually the case. People percieve the value
of health care coverage based on their usage, not it's cost.

>
>>
>>To Wes, that means he'll be in the market through the exchange system and
>>what he'll see is that a pool that includes millions of individuals can
>>lead
>>to a real cost effective result. He'll also be responsive to even small
>>premium increases because he'll have to pay them every month. That will
>>make
>>it much harder to raise rates because people will just change plans. As
>>things are now, he doesn't either know or care because he's one or two
>>steps
>>removed from the process and isn't included in any decision making.
>
> So President Obama's line of "If you like your health care plan, you can
> keep your health
> care plan" was a blatant lie?

Hardly Wes. It's that he was adressing those that actually buy health care,
that is your employer, not you.
As an employer, I don't like "my" plan even a little so I'm going to make a
change. You can keep "your" doctor if you want but you can't necessarily
keep mine.

You'd be in a different situation were you self employed or a contractor
because you'd be in the private market.
Under that set of facts, yes, you could keep your plan if you liked it.

What ought to be increasingly clear to you is that a public option or single
payer system is in your best interests and, as an employer, mine.
What we have now puts us both at a competitive disadvantage in todays world
marketplace. The only winners are the insurance and pharmaceutical
industries.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:35 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Andrew VK3BFA
<VK3BFA@wia.org.au> wrote:

>On Mar 20, 4:53 am, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:02:45 -0700, "Bill Noble"
>>
>> <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >"Larry Jaques" <ljaq...@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
>> >news:pcupp59u5dt79t98jt18qngfqvjtb8scvh@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:20:32 -0700 (PDT), the infamous Andrew VK3BFA
>> >> <VK3...@wia.org.au> scrawled the following:
>>
>> >bunch of mindless junk snipped
>>
>> Only when a Leftist defines it.
>>
>> Shrug
>>
>> "First Law of Leftist Debate
>> The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
>> that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
>> more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
>> losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
>> homophobe approaches infinity.
>>
>> This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
>> race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
>> the subject." Grey Ghost
>
>What day of the week is it Gunner - or is that a leftie plot too.
>
>Andrew VK3BFA.

While Im flattered, Ive never heard of a day of the week called Gunner.

Perhaps its from an old German calendar?

Gunner

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DIY surge protection...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fa560b93f2504a9b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 4:05 am
From: cncmillgil

On Mar 20, 7:09 pm, westom <west...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 20, 12:26 pm, "hr(bob) hofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net>
> wrote:> They are not capacitors. They are electronic-semiconductor devices
> > that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
> > they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. The
> > limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
> > before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
> > circuit. I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
> > usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
> > up.
>
> Either you buy a protector that will somehow absorb all that
> energy. Or you buy protectors based upon how it was done even 100
> years ago. Protection is always about where energy dissipated.
> Either that energy remains outside the building. Or that energy is
> inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.
> Adjacent protectors simply give surges even more potentially
> destructive paths through adjacent appliances.
>
> An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
> functional. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
> Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. Yes, the
> protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
> remain functional. And that means the connection to earth must be
> additional requirements - short ('less than 10 feet) to earth, no
> sharp wire bends, no splices. all protectors meet at (again 'less than
> 10 feet to') the single point earth ground, ground wires separated
> from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc.
>
> Protection is always about where energy dissipates. If those
> hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth, then no damage.
> This is how it was done even 100 years ago.
>
> But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
> joules? Always view the tech specs. Plug-in protectors rates at
> hundreds of joules will somehow make hundreds of thousands just
> disappear? That is what they claim. In analysis, we even traced
> surges earthed destructive through a network of powered off computers
> because the surge was permitted inside the building. And because a
> surge on the black (hot) wire was connected directly to the
> motherboard by the protector. The protector bypassed protection
> inside the computer's power supply.
>
> Telcos do not waste money on protectors adjacent to electronics.
> That switching center must never suffer damage. A switching center,
> connected to overhead wires all over town, may suffer 100 surges with
> each thunderstorm - and no damage. Why? Each protector connects
> short to the single point earth ground. And the protector is up to 50
> meters separated from electronics. That separation increases
> protection.
>
> No protector is protection. None. The only effective protectors
> make that short connection to single point earth ground. Ineffective
> protectors (a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts
> selling for $25 or $150) are profit centers. The NIST (US government
> research agency) discusses those ineffective protectors by describing
> what every protector must do:
>
> > A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the
> > surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is
> > not done properly.
>
> The NIST describes plug-in protectors as "useless". Obviously. It
> does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. Find those spec
> numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge?
> No plug-in protector makes protection claims. They are a profit
> center.
>
> Protection is always about where energy dissipates. IOW why
> facilities with effective protection both meet and exceed post 1990
> National Electrical code. Where does energy dissipate? A protector
> is only as effective as its earth ground - which no plug-in protector
> has and therefore will not discuss. Effective 'whole house' protectors
> come from General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Siemens, Square D, and
> Leviton. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home
> Depot for less than $50.

How bout a surge from downed power lines? Ours got knocked down from
ice on trees falling on the main lines into the house 4am Christmas
eve. Started a fire (12" flames) on the Belkin UL approved spike/
surge protector right next to the christmas tree & plasma TV! Could
never get an answer as to why this happened. Knocked out a couple
other surge strips including a plug in CO2 detector.
Thank god thats all that happened.

http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned1.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned2.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned3.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned4.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned5.JPG

Must be something to do with the end of the power- where it
dissipates ?

BB;s #9
The older you get
The more you suspect
Ideas long set
Are just all wet

©¿©
~gil~

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:20 am
From: trader4@optonline.net

On Mar 20, 12:22 pm, "pdr...@coinet.com" <co_far...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 20, 8:47 am, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Awl --
>
> > On the main breaker box, for the whole house.
>
> > First Q: Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?
>
> > Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
> > protection it affords.
> > $500?????????????? Holy shit.....
>
> > Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? Connected to where? Each hot
> > to ground? Between hots? Values?
> > I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.
>
> > If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
> > surge protectors fer yer pyooters?
>
> > Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
> > think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
> > What is that ring doing? And which wires go thru it? Hot? Hot+return?
> > --
> > EA
>
> Surge protectors are not capacitors. They are made from material that
> will conduct electricity when the voltage exceeds some particular
> design value. That excess electric power is converted to heat in the
> surge protector.

That isn't correct. The main function of a surge protector is to
shunt the current to ground. In doing so, SOME of the power is
converted to heat as it passes through because the MOVs are not
perfect conductors and do have some small resistance.

> If the "surge" or spike is too long lasting or occurs
> so often that the surge protector does not have time to cool, it will
> eventually produce smoke and stop working. At that time any and all
> surges and spikes will continue on to the rest of your house.
>
> Usually the surge protector will die without you knowing about the
> death. There is no way to test them without a spike generator and an
> oscilloscope.

All of the good whole house surge protectors that I have seen have
indicator lights that show if they are still functioning or not.
Some also have audible alarms to signal that they have failed, or
relay contacts that can be sent to a remote alarm system, etc.

>
> The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
> equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. A
> construction company was excavating very deeply for a sewer pumping
> station near my office. Somehow they connected 220 volts to the buried
> telephone cable. The power went through the local phone company
> junction box and into our phone system and fax machine. The surge
> protectors immediately absorbed all the power they could and produced
> smoke. Then the power continued on to burn out circuit boards in the
> equipment.
>
> We only discovered the source of the problem when a few days later I
> discovered a telephone guy installing a new junction box near our
> office. He told me about the construction company problem and how they
> were paying for the damage. They also paid us.
>
> So, bottom line is the protectors are probably a one-time only
> protection. There is no easy way to test. The surge may come from an
> unprotected source. This applies to all protectors, including all-
> house protectors. All lines coming to a house must be protected, Not
> just the "hot" lines.
>
> The "iron rings" you refer to are ferrite RF supressors. They reduce
> the electronic noise generated by switching power supplies.
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:47 am
From: trader4@optonline.net

On Mar 20, 9:09 pm, westom <west...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 20, 12:26 pm, "hr(bob) hofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net>
> wrote:> They are not capacitors. They are electronic-semiconductor devices
> > that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
> > they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. The
> > limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
> > before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
> > circuit. I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
> > usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
> > up.
>

Well, we all knew this was coming. Mention surge protector, and like
a bolt of lightning from the sky, here comes WTom.

> Either you buy a protector that will somehow absorb all that
> energy. Or you buy protectors based upon how it was done even 100
> years ago. Protection is always about where energy dissipated.
> Either that energy remains outside the building. Or that energy is
> inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.
> Adjacent protectors simply give surges even more potentially
> destructive paths through adjacent appliances.
>
> An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
> functional. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
> Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. Yes, the
> protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
> remain functional. And that means the connection to earth must be
> additional requirements - short ('less than 10 feet) to earth, no
> sharp wire bends, no splices. all protectors meet at (again 'less than
> 10 feet to') the single point earth ground, ground wires separated
> from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc.
>
> Protection is always about where energy dissipates. If those
> hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth, then no damage.
> This is how it was done even 100 years ago.

So far, I would mostly agree. Except the part about a direct
lightning strike. A direct lightning strike is mostly a red herring,
because even if the lightning bolt hit the service cable near the
building, it's highly unlikely that the path of all or even most of
the lightning is going to be through the service wire and into the
surge protector. Far more likely, it will arc with most of the
energy finding ground outside the building before it ever gets to the
surge protector at the panel or meter.

>
> But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
> joules?

Here;s where Tom likes to start arguing against strawmans and the rant
about plug-in surge protectors begins. The actual question was
about a whole house surge protector.

> Always view the tech specs. Plug-in protectors rates at
> hundreds of joules will somehow make hundreds of thousands just
> disappear? That is what they claim. In analysis, we even traced
> surges earthed destructive through a network of powered off computers
> because the surge was permitted inside the building. And because a
> surge on the black (hot) wire was connected directly to the
> motherboard by the protector. The protector bypassed protection
> inside the computer's power supply.
>
> Telcos do not waste money on protectors adjacent to electronics.

Total nonsense. Every line card on a telco switch has surge
protection right on the card where it connects to the incoming line.
Much like if you take apart an analog modem, you will almost always
find MOVs or similar components there.

> That switching center must never suffer damage. A switching center,
> connected to overhead wires all over town, may suffer 100 surges with
> each thunderstorm - and no damage. Why? Each protector connects
> short to the single point earth ground. And the protector is up to 50
> meters separated from electronics. That separation increases
> protection.

In fact, just like the IEEE recommends, the telco uses a tiered
approach. Yes, they have surge protection where the line enters the
building. But they also have it on the line cards. Months ago I
even found you semiconductors designed and marketed for telcos that go
on the linecards, complete with the application notes. Yet, here we
go again.

>
> No protector is protection. None. The only effective protectors
> make that short connection to single point earth ground. Ineffective
> protectors (a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts
> selling for $25 or $150) are profit centers. The NIST (US government
> research agency) discusses those ineffective protectors by describing
> what every protector must do:

Please provide us a link to NIST or any other credible source that
says plug-in protectors are ineffective as part of a protection plan.
You've been asked that here for years and we have yet to see the
link.

>
> > A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the
> > surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is
> > not done properly.
>
> The NIST describes plug-in protectors as "useless". Obviously. It
> does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. Find those spec
> numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge?
> No plug-in protector makes protection claims. They are a profit
> center.
>
> Protection is always about where energy dissipates. IOW why
> facilities with effective protection both meet and exceed post 1990
> National Electrical code. Where does energy dissipate? A protector
> is only as effective as its earth ground - which no plug-in protector
> has and therefore will not discuss. Effective 'whole house' protectors
> come from General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Siemens, Square D, and
> Leviton. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home
> Depot for less than $50.

And here comes the list again. What Tom won't tell you is that of
those companies on his list of real effective and responsible
manufacturers, most of them also sell plug-in surge protectors. They
recommend using them as part of a tiered strategy.

As for the HD solution for less than $50, that doesn't square with
your criteria of needing a minimum of 50,000 amps, because they have
no such product available at HD.

The best advice was already provided. That was the link to the IEEE
guide on surge protection.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Everyone can read what respected peer-reviewed engineers
recommend. And I can tell you this. They don't say plug-ins are
ineffective. Read chapters 5 and 6. Instead, they show them being
used as part of a tiered strategy. You put whole house protection at
the meter or panel. Then you use plug-ins that route all power and
signal through them, to further protect key equipment, eg, TVs, PCs,
etc.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I got a stalker
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c4abe78c4ec1cac2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:30 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:52:49 -0700, "Steve B"
<deserttraver@dishymail.net> wrote:

>
>"Steve B" <deserttraver@fishymail.net> wrote in message
>news:ho0qg6$q41$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:47:46 -0700, Steve B wrote:
>>
>>> People here know I can be cranky. Almost dying does that to one. But,
>>> they
>>> also know that I'm on a New Year's resolution to behave. So, as long as
>>> the
>>> people here who know me know that there's a clone out there, they will
>>> disregard the troll, and he/she/it will find another bridge.
>>>
>>> I must say, though. I'm flattered just a little. <g> But only a
>>> little.
>>> I'd definitely like to meet the little bastard face to face, but I know
>>> that
>>> ain't gonna happen.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>> You would be flattered being called a liar and dumbshit.
>>
>> Little bastard?
>> I'd wipe my ass with your tee shirt while you were still in it. Be careful
>> what you wish for.
>>
>> steve b
>>
>
>Bring it on, dipshit.
>
>Steve
>
Gunner gets dibs on video rights and the body of the fake Steve B. I
can get a couple hundred for selling it to a couple really strange guys
I know about in West Hollywood, as long as I also supply a quart of KY
when I deliver the corpse.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Thank you, Al A. for the mag chuck
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/85b3fcd27f2a058e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 5:44 am
From: "Al A."

On 3/20/2010 12:22 PM, Ignoramus28888 wrote:
> I finally got around to looking at it, wired the plug correctly (I did
> not do it right the first time) and, I am delighted to report, it
> works very well. Your packaging was superb, also.
>
> i

Thanks, Iggy. Glad you like it. So tell us all, did you get a big
grinder, or do you have some other trick in mind?

-Al

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FS - 2 X 48 sanding belts
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/7ccc077203800a5e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 21 2010 6:04 am
From: "Al A."

In my continuing effort to clear some stuff out and reclaim some
space, I have a few 2x48 belt sander belts for sale. I'm not even sure
why I have these as I have never owned a 2x48 machine. Anyhow, there are
fourteen in all, five 150 grit, five 100 grit and four 60 grit. All are
aluminum oxide on cloth backing, made in USA. All are unused.

asking $24.00 including USPS flat-rate priority shipping.

More odds-and-ends to come. Thanks!
-Al A.

==============================================================================

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Sunday, March 21, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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