twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 15 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

rec.crafts.metalworking@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to play with EMC2 and G code without an actual mill
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/2e32bcd27cf3bc6c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:30 am
From: Ignoramus5280

I would like to somehow practice EMC2 (milling application, 3 axis),
and G-code and other such things, without actually running a mill. It
would be a "simulation". What kind of software can I use.

Ergo, say, if I could specify the tool geometry, location, raw
material geometry and location, then applied G-Code, I want to see
what I would end up with AS IF I machined it.

Any suggestions?

Preferably Linux

thanks

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:37 am
From: Pete Keillor

On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:30:51 -0600, Ignoramus5280
<ignoramus5280@NOSPAM.5280.invalid> wrote:

>I would like to somehow practice EMC2 (milling application, 3 axis),
>and G-code and other such things, without actually running a mill. It
>would be a "simulation". What kind of software can I use.
>
>Ergo, say, if I could specify the tool geometry, location, raw
>material geometry and location, then applied G-Code, I want to see
>what I would end up with AS IF I machined it.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Preferably Linux
>
>
>thanks
>
>i
Ig, there are demos in there you can modify, I think. I know I've run
the demos. You do have to load the RTAI version of the kernel.

Pete Keillor

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:43 am
From: Ignoramus5280

On 2010-03-02, Pete Keillor <keillorp135@chartermi.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:30:51 -0600, Ignoramus5280
><ignoramus5280@NOSPAM.5280.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I would like to somehow practice EMC2 (milling application, 3 axis),
>>and G-code and other such things, without actually running a mill. It
>>would be a "simulation". What kind of software can I use.
>>
>>Ergo, say, if I could specify the tool geometry, location, raw
>>material geometry and location, then applied G-Code, I want to see
>>what I would end up with AS IF I machined it.
>>
>>Any suggestions?
>>
>>Preferably Linux
>>
>>
>>thanks
>>
>>i
> Ig, there are demos in there you can modify, I think. I know I've run
> the demos. You do have to load the RTAI version of the kernel.

OK, I will look some more. I am about 1/3 through the EMC2 manual,
which is actually very well written. This EMC2 looks like a fine piece
of software also.

I was hoping to use it in simulation mode without RTAI mode on later
versions of Ubuntu, this way I can try it on many computers, like my
laptop.

Or maybe I will just run it remotely via ssh.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:25 am
From: "Pete C."

Ignoramus5280 wrote:
>
> I would like to somehow practice EMC2 (milling application, 3 axis),
> and G-code and other such things, without actually running a mill. It
> would be a "simulation". What kind of software can I use.
>
> Ergo, say, if I could specify the tool geometry, location, raw
> material geometry and location, then applied G-Code, I want to see
> what I would end up with AS IF I machined it.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Preferably Linux
>
> thanks
>
> i

FYI, what you're looking for is really a CAM simulator, not CNC control
like EMC2.

I haven't played with EMC2, but I expect that it's like Mach3 and
defaults to a "demo" mode, i.e. a configuration where it isn't expecting
feedback from an actual machine so it can run "blind" with no machine
connected.

I'm sure EMC2 will show you the toolpath movements when running and the
toolpath simulation, since EMC did and Mach3 does. The CNC control
toolpath simulation only shows you the moves, it does not attempt to
show anything relating to the cutter geometry or the actual material
being machined. I believe most CNC controls are that was since the
cutter geometry is the domain of the CAM software that is generating the
G code, not the domain of the CNC controller.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Maker Faire prep
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/3883f72ba0e42140?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:31 am
From: "RAM³"

steamer <steamer@sonic.net> wrote in news:4b8bfc36$0$1640
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> --Suggestions welcome!

How about a pneumatic knife blade honer?

Fit a thin diamond hone to a push-pull device such as a sheet-metal saw
with the hone on edge then simply clamp the knife blade so that it's at the
appropriate angle.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Turner Troubles
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/98d09d04b39d9791?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:32 am
From: Occam's Razor

On 3/2/2010 11:57 AM, �n�hw��f wrote:
> Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everything@Talk-n-dog.com> clouded
> the waters of pure thought with
> news:4b8d2231$0$11409$ec3e2dad@unlimited.usenetmonster.com:
>
>> On 3/2/2010 6:59 AM, Cliff wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/030110_Retrial_opens_
>>> for_North_Bergen_right-wing_Internet_radio_host_Hal_Turner.html
>>> "Retrial opens for North Bergen right-wing Internet radio host
>>> Hal Turner"
>>> [
>>> Internet radio talk show host Hal Turner so �despised� a ruling
>>> upholding a handgun ban in Chicago that he threatened the lives
>>> of three federal appeals court judges in a bid to silence them, a
>>> prosecutor said Monday.
>>
>>
>> The effort to silence the opponents of the Left is under way....
>>
>>
>> They will silence the talk radio/internet with charges they
>> conjure up to make some examples and try to send shock waves of
>> fear to silence WE THE PEOPLE.
>>
>
> I feels yer pain, you poor repressed, unrepresented rich white fucks.
>
> Cry me a fucking river...
>

If government can do it to me, they can do it to you.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - The Supremes To Decide On A Gun Issue
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c1a16b6a42bc4b0b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:31 am
From: Tim Wescott

RBnDFW wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>> Today, the Court is supposed to take up the issue of whether or not
>> local governments have the right to restrict gun ownership.
>> It will be an interesting test of the mettle of old-time
>> Conservatives, who are fond of arguing in favor of "States' Rights"
>> over the power of the Federal government. I predict that they will
>> conveniently forget the states' rights issue for the duration of this
>> decision.
>>
>> While I agree with them on the core issue of the inalienability of
>> citizens' rights to posses firearms, I can't help but think that
>> states' rights has always been a smoke screen for discriminatory
>> and/or repressive behavior.
>>
>> Since the Court is tilted in favor of Conservatives, I suppose that
>> the decision will favor gun rights, but I remain suspicious about the
>> real agenda of any politicians; despite all their populist talk, they
>> don't want too much power vested in the hands of the citizenry. Here's
>> hoping that the decision will be made in favor of freedom.
>
> I think you are missing the point.
> The issue is that the rights are given by the Creator, and the
> government is constrained from limiting those rights.
> The individual states should also be required to recognize the same rights.
> No state should be allowed to restrict basic rights of humans.

Yet the Supreme Court is supposed to be interpreting the US
constitution, not the Bible or any other religious text.

Which is fine with me, and makes me glad that's how things work in the
US -- if _you_ want to live in a land where the rules are made and
enforced according to some preacher's interpretation of religious law,
there's always Iran.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:16 am
From: "Ed Huntress"

"RBnDFW" <burkheimer@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hmjg0r$g5s$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Joe wrote:
>> Today, the Court is supposed to take up the issue of whether or not
>> local governments have the right to restrict gun ownership. It will be an
>> interesting test of the mettle of old-time
>> Conservatives, who are fond of arguing in favor of "States' Rights"
>> over the power of the Federal government. I predict that they will
>> conveniently forget the states' rights issue for the duration of this
>> decision.
>>
>> While I agree with them on the core issue of the inalienability of
>> citizens' rights to posses firearms, I can't help but think that
>> states' rights has always been a smoke screen for discriminatory
>> and/or repressive behavior.
>>
>> Since the Court is tilted in favor of Conservatives, I suppose that
>> the decision will favor gun rights, but I remain suspicious about the
>> real agenda of any politicians; despite all their populist talk, they
>> don't want too much power vested in the hands of the citizenry. Here's
>> hoping that the decision will be made in favor of freedom.
>
> I think you are missing the point.
> The issue is that the rights are given by the Creator, and the government
> is constrained from limiting those rights.
> The individual states should also be required to recognize the same
> rights.
> No state should be allowed to restrict basic rights of humans.

But there are several ironies here. First is that the Constitution was
written by men, so *their* interpretation of "basic rights of humans" could
be wrong. In fact, the US signed a UN document (and largely wrote it) a
half-century ago that says we missed close to half of them.

Second is that the same people who claim states' rights are the ones who say
the Constitution was about limitations to what the *federal* government
could do, and over which it had authority. This was confirmed by the Supreme
Court in the 1830s, in the Barron v. Baltimore case. Then the 14th Amendment
was passed decades later, and now we're still deciding whether that actually
gave the federal government, particularly the Supreme Court, the authority
to decide when a state is violating a right of their citizens. In the matter
of the 2nd Amendment, that's what this case is going to decide.

The final irony, which Joe pointed out, is that Scalia and Thomas (mostly
Scalia) has been sarcastically bad-mouthing the "substantive due process"
doctrine that has given us such things as nation-wide free speech, freedom
of religion, and so on, for a few decades. That's the most likely doctrine
for the Court to follow in granting federal authority to enforce the right
to keep and bear arms, over the heads of the states.

But it's well known that Scalia and Thomas hate that doctrine, while at the
same time favoring the extending of the right over the states -- a process
called "incorporation" under the 14th. They're between a rock and a hard
place. Either they invoke substantive due process and embarrass themselves
(that's what the NRA wants them to do, in their parallel case), or they
overturn the Slaughterhouse Cases which have stood as precedent since the
1870s, and employ a different doctrine from the 14th to incorporate the 2nd.

We were discussing this here almost a year ago, and I mentioned then that it
was going to be really interesting, and really consequential. Look at who is
supporting overturning the Slaughterhouse cases: the ACLU, the Cato
Institute, and most pro-gun groups, except the NRA. Very strange bedfellows
indeed.

Fasten your seat belt. <g>

--
Ed Huntress

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 11:32 am
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Mar 2, 11:31 am, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.now> wrote:
> RBnDFW wrote:
> > Joe wrote:
> >> Today, the Court is supposed to take up the issue of whether or not
> >> local governments have the right to restrict gun ownership.
> >> It will be an interesting test of the mettle of old-time
> >> Conservatives, who are fond of arguing in favor of "States' Rights"
> >> over the power of the Federal government. I predict that they will
> >> conveniently forget the states' rights issue for the duration of this
> >> decision.
>
> >> While I agree with them on the core issue of the inalienability of
> >> citizens' rights to posses firearms, I can't help but think that
> >> states' rights has always been a smoke screen for discriminatory
> >> and/or repressive behavior.
>
> >> Since the Court is tilted in favor of Conservatives, I suppose that
> >> the decision will favor gun rights, but I remain suspicious about the
> >> real agenda of any politicians; despite all their populist talk, they
> >> don't want too much power vested in the hands of the citizenry. Here's
> >> hoping that the decision will be made in favor of freedom.
>
> > I think you are missing the point.
> > The issue is that the rights are given by the Creator, and the
> > government is constrained from limiting those rights.
> > The individual states should also be required to recognize the same rights.
> > No state should be allowed to restrict basic rights of humans.
>
> Yet the Supreme Court is supposed to be interpreting the US
> constitution, not the Bible or any other religious text.
>
> Which is fine with me, and makes me glad that's how things work in the
> US -- if _you_ want to live in a land where the rules are made and
> enforced according to some preacher's interpretation of religious law,
> there's always Iran.
>
> --
> Tim Wescott
> Control system and signal processing consultingwww.wescottdesign.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

...or any state south of the Mason Dixon line.

TMT

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT Re: Docs to Chimpbama: You drink too much!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/3f4c5be11e10a39a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:34 am
From: "William Wixon"

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hmj3lk$sk1$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Might be a cultural thing? He's showing his Kenyan
> nationality?
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
>
> "Burled Frau" <achtung@jawol.jah> wrote in message
> news:4b8d0f47@news.x-privat.org...
>
>
> You are incorrect. Moderate drinking is one drink
> per day for a woman, one
> or two drinks a day for a man per day. Obama's
> pounding a fifth of Jack
> nightly is not considered moderate. They did
> experiments with chimps and
> 0bama shows the same chimp behavior. Of course
> it's possible that it's not
> due to the alcohol at all.
>
>

i wonder how much influence michelle obama has on the affairs of state.
like bill and hillary, "billary". are we going to have a barack/michelle?
"barchelle"? "michrack"!?

b.w.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:42 am
From: "dcaster@krl.org"

On Mar 2, 6:18 am, Hawke <davesmith...@digitalpath.net> wrote:

>
> Personally, I never met anyone who drank that
> little. Anybody that drinks has more than one and more than once or
> twice a week. If you drink less than that you don't drink at all.
>
> Hawke

I am sure you have met people that drink that little, but still
drink. We are out there. Or at least if we ever meet, you will have
met someone that drinks that little. I almost never have more than
one drink in a day but did have two one day in Feb. I got a 12
pack of beer before Thanksgiving and drank the last two this Feb.
It has not been beer drinking weather.

Dan

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:44 am
From: hal

On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:50:55 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
<CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:

>> You're correct. What doctors call moderate alcohol intake is one drink a
>> couple of times a week. Personally, I never met anyone who drank that
>> little. Anybody that drinks has more than one and more than once or
>> twice a week. If you drink less than that you don't drink at all.
>
>There are a few of us. I drink a six-pack of beer per year and a bottle
>of wine lasts me a week with meals. That's it. There really are a few
>of us who drink in moderation.

For some people 3-4 drinks a day is moderate. It all depends on your
metabolism and what you are used to. And much of it is what is
considered culturally acceptable. Cultures who grow up with their
food culture centered around beer and wine have people who can easily
handle several drinks worth a day that would put other people who are
not used to it under the table.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:00 am
From: Curly Surmudgeon

On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 17:44:23 +0000, hal wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:50:55 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
> <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> You're correct. What doctors call moderate alcohol intake is one drink
>>> a couple of times a week. Personally, I never met anyone who drank
>>> that little. Anybody that drinks has more than one and more than once
>>> or twice a week. If you drink less than that you don't drink at all.
>>
>>There are a few of us. I drink a six-pack of beer per year and a bottle
>>of wine lasts me a week with meals. That's it. There really are a few
>>of us who drink in moderation.
>
> For some people 3-4 drinks a day is moderate. It all depends on your
> metabolism and what you are used to. And much of it is what is
> considered culturally acceptable. Cultures who grow up with their food
> culture centered around beer and wine have people who can easily handle
> several drinks worth a day that would put other people who are not used
> to it under the table.

No doubt. My point was that there really are a lot of people who can
drink lightly. Or not at all. I think there is a genetic influence too,
look at Amerinds who are so easily addicted to alcohol or Northern
Europeans who seem to have a predilection to nose candy.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Republicans: Party Without a Conscious
Democrats: Party Without a Spine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Harbor Freight battery leakage
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fe67d032af3e1550?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:37 am
From: Larry Jaques

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 22:43:44 -0600, the infamous Jon Elson
<elson@pico-systems.com> scrawled the following:

>Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> First time I've had trouble with HF batteries. I
>> went to my shelf for something today, and find
>> that two packages of brand new HF "Thudnerbolt
>> Magnum" AA cells had leaked. Two eaches 24 packs.
>> Between then, about 20 batteries had leaked. Less
>> than a year old, not been recharged, brand new in
>> the package.
>>
>> I'm rather disappointed.
>>
>With a Harbor Freight item? You gotta be kidding!
> I have only bought
>about 2 items from them in 15 years. I got a
>couple good items from them about 25-30 years ago,

Out of the hundreds of items I've purchased from HF over the past 40
years, I can probably name only a dozen which were truly trash. The
rest were decent, some truly great.

>but their quality went in the toilet and I stopped
>buying from them
>WAY back. The has to be a reason everybody comes
>up with funny names for this outfit, along the
>lines of "horrible fright".

I've seen just the opposite. Quality levels are up, especially in the
electrical items. Yes, I've returned items and warrantied a few
others. The quality of the replacements was great in most cases. One
recent problem I had was with their Greenlee clone dies. One noodle
factory made the dies, another made the fasteners, and though they
were the same thread, the were way off in diameters. The screw
stripped out before I even got it halfway tightened. 3 other sets in
the store were equally bogus so I ended up buying a real (used)
Greenley set for about the same price via eBay. But that kind of low
quality is infrequent in HF today.

Vive la Frugal!

--
Pessimist: One who, when he has the choice of two evils, chooses both.
--Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:06 am
From: Cydrome Leader

Stormin Mormon <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
> First time I've had trouble with HF batteries. I
> went to my shelf for something today, and find
> that two packages of brand new HF "Thudnerbolt
> Magnum" AA cells had leaked. Two eaches 24 packs.

Maybe you should switch to SunPower KingSuper batteries.

They live up to the name.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Alternatives to LPS-2
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/c986024af47a68d0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:07 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Mar 1, 9:38 am, Ignoramus11220 <ignoramus11...@NOSPAM.
11220.invalid> wrote:
> LPS-2 is a great rust preventative, because it is light oil, sprays
> nicely, and does not dry or harden over time. It also creeps and
> penetrates well, so if, say, I spray it on top of a pile of metal
> things, it will get to all the pieces in time.
>
> The only minus of it is that it is expensive.
>
> Does anyone know of a cheaper alternative that can be sprayed and does
> not dry out.
>
> Thanks
>
> i

Look at what CRC offers. I've not used anything but their penetrant,
556, 356, 348 or one of them thread sizes. It worked OK. NAPA was
one source and I've seen it on real hardware store shelves. I like
the LPS line myself, but they seem to be really after the industrial
market, case lots, not the home shop onesies. I use more LPS 1 and 3
than 2.

Stan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: 'Puter Q-How to boot to 2 OS HDS?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/24653b355459ad9c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:10 am
From: stans4@prolynx.com

On Mar 2, 6:25 am, mike <mlight...@survivormail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 1, 10:04 pm, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The 95 HDD is slaved to C
> > JR
> > Dweller in the cellar
>
> > JR North wrote:
> > > Have ME on C, 95 on D. Besides unplugging C (hard to get to), how can I
> > > force a boot to the 95 HD? no option in BIOS to select different HDDs.
> > > JR
> > > Dweller in the cellar
>
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Home Page:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
> > If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
> > Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
> > The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
> > No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dependence is Vulnerability:
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
> > "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."
>
> Do you have an old DOS start-up floppy with fdisk on it? If so, you
> might be able to go into fdisk, make the 'D' drive active, and then it
> should boot from the D...that was 'should', no guarantees as we're
> talking Micro$oft and old computer components.
>
> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's basically what some of the multi-boot apps did, play with the
partition tables. Not my cup of tea, but somebody liked it... If you
do it, make sure you've got the partition tables backed up somewhere
else.

Stan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Endangerment Finding
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ff743e798d14f481?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:16 am
From: Curly Surmudgeon

On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:06:05 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

> Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> fired this volley in
> news:hmjdn8$uks$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> Nope, also CO and NO2. Carbon monoxide is the killer.
>
> Not from a clean, properly oxygenated, near-atmospheric pressure flame.
> NOx compounds are not formed at the relatively low temperatures found
> there, and CO is only formed in the presence of insufficient oxygen.
>
> LLoyd

Few kerosene heaters are well attended and do produce both NO2 (and NO)
and carbon monoxide. Oft times dangerous levels of CO. NO actually
helps respiration but isn't present in any significant amount. CO should
be of concern.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: building jeep frame
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/32fc57a529507b1b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:31 am
From: Jim Stewart

John D. wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:52:39 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
> <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:qZ6dnaBKsPYVoxHWnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>> "RAM�" <s31924.nospam@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9D2EA3292F188s31924netscapenet@74.209.131.10...
>>>> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespamnot@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>>>> news:ca6dnfBx8ZKbmxHWnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
>>>>
>>>>> Why not aluminum? I have an aluminum boat trailer. Works very well.
>>>>> 3400# boat. The Covette has an aluminum frame as well as the Cadillac
>>>>> bodied Vette. Look at a Corvette and see what they use. Airplanes
>>>>> have aluminum frames. And as long as you design well, the flex should
>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>
>>>> Boat trailers are rarely twisted the way that off-road vehicles routinely
>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> The same thing applies to Corvettes.
>>>>
>>>> After all, when was the last time that you went rock-crawling with your
>>>> 'Vette? <Grin>
>>>>
>>>> How about mud-bogging or bouncing around on deeply-rutted roads?
>>>>
>>>> Jeeps are expected to do all of these and more without any ill effects.
>>>> (Getting dirty/muddy is, for a Jeep, a good thing!)
>>> Hell, I raced a vette, steel chassis, and it got to rock clrawing a couple
>>> times. :>) And boat trailers are regularly towed over uneven ground.
>> With three points taking out the loads -- hitch and suspension supports,
>> which generally are paired but close -- there is no significant torsional
>> load on a boat trailer. It's all simple bending. You can deal with that, but
>> if you towed your boat 100% of the time, I think you'd develop fatigue
>> problems in aluminum.
>>
>> The aluminum Corvette chassis are semi-space-frame with some shear panels.
>> The subframes resolve their loads in three dimensions. There isn't much
>> flexing there.
>>
>> The same applies to aircraft, which often are near-monocoque. If they flex,
>> you die.
>
> Error.. ever see the wings on a B-52? When they taxi out for take-off
> both outrigger wheels are on the ground; when they come back one
> outrigger will be ten feet in the air. But not only the wings, a B-52
> on the ground has large wrinkles on each side of the fuselage, forward
> of the wings; flying the fuselage is smooth.

For what it's worth, I was told that the fuselage
skin on a B-52 was unwrinkled until they started
flying them at 100ft off the ground at 500mph or
something...

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:54 am
From: Ned Simmons

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:10:06 -0800, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.now>
wrote:

>
>Stainless is hard to weld, and fatigues far more readily than steel.

Setting aside the question of whether SS is a good choice for the OP's
project, the common austenitic stainless steels -- 304 and 316 -- are
among the easiest materials to weld. The fatigue limit of both alloys
is in the 35 to 40 ksi range, higher than the fatigue limit for common
structural steels.

--
Ned Simmons

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Self-education among wingers
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/95c5b22fa0e87057?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:49 am
From: "Fred B. Brown"

"Major Debacle" <Major_Debacle@pentagon.mil> wrote in message
news:hmjdfs$q6k$1@adenine.netfront.net...
> Fred B. Brown wrote:
>> "Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
>> news:9jqpo5dnu0hlso30k5rmddamkml09e0rto@4ax.com...
>>> Two wingers were digging a ditch in the hot sun.
>>
>> Obviously Democrats, Republicans only work white collar jobs.
>>
>
> Joe the Plumber?

Plumbers wear white shirts.

> --
> When asked, years afterward, why his charge at Gettysburg failed,
> General Pickett replied: "I've always thought the Yankees had something
> to do with it."
>
>
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Educating Palin ??????
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/943320276cebeb7a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:57 am
From: "RD (The Sandman)"

Cliff <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in
news:q40qo51ma8mh4kptii10umn2h4u6a9vsnt@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:44:41 -0600, "RD (The Sandman)"
> <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Cliff <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in
>>news:c2eho55pv6tu7jqbpgca5uafn6jild2fll@4ax.com:
>>
>>> http://rawstory.com/2010/02/oreilly-sarah-palin-college/
>>> "O�Reilly: �Sarah Palin needs to go to college�"
>>> [
>>> Sarah Palin's popularity among conservatives may be strong, but even
>>> some of them seem to think she ought to learn a little bit more. That
>>> includes Fox News anchor Bill O'Reilly.
>>>
>>> Appearing on ABC's "Good Morning America" on Thursday, O'Reilly told
>>> George Stephanopoulos that if Palin wants to be a serious political
>>> contender for the 2012 elections, she should hit the books.
>>>
>>> "Sarah Palin needs to go to college," O'Reilly said.
>>>]
>>>
>>> He should know, right? After all, IIRC, he passed High School
>>> somehow.
>>
>>He graduated from Harvard.
>
> Amy Goodman graduated from Harvard.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Goodman
>
> HTH

Who cares? Obama was there, too.

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Expecting a carjacker, rapist or drug pusher to care that his
possession or use of a gun is unlawful is like expecting a terrorist
to care that his car bomb is taking up two parking spaces."

--Joseph T. Chew

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Largest Ever Coprolites
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/81ae4d3ff06ad686?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:58 am
From: "Fred B. Brown"

"Cliff" <Clhuprichguesswhat@aoltmovetheperiodc.om> wrote in message
news:6fspo5td40cucfu3kr104d2e6988jkhljq@4ax.com...
>
> http://glossynews.com/other-world-games/news-in-brief/201003012049/largest-ever-coprolites-found-half-buried-in-palin%e2%80%99s-back-yard/
> "Largest Ever Coprolites Found Half Buried in Palin's Back Yard"

WOW, Look at that big word.
Betcha won a prize for spelling you name right in a 12th grade

spelling bee.

> Last week, while Sarah Palin was busy making her rounds on the Tea Party
> circuit, expounding her views on who is and who is not a true Patriot, a
> group
> of Palintologists were busy digging up dirt in Palin's own back yard.
> Reports
> are slowly coming in from Wasilla that one of the largest coprolites ever
> found
> was dug up just feet from Sarah's back porch.
>
> When Palin was advised of the find, she is reported as saying "I don't
> know what
> the heck you're talking about. I don't have any corporate executives
> buried in
> my back yard, for heaven's sake."
> ]

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free - Loctite 609 Retaining Compound
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/660a28440036be63?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:58 am
From: Ned Simmons

On 28 Feb 2010 02:50:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <dnichols@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

>On 2010-02-28, Bruce L Bergman <bruceNOSPAMbergman@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> Is this a "Refrigerate is good", " Freezer is even better!" or a
>> Refrigerate is BAD!" product?
>
> I think perhaps a "refrigerate is irrelevant" product. :-)

That's my understanding. I used to keep several different flavors of
thread lockers in the the refrig 'til I saw a reputable reference that
said it doesn't matter. CA glues, on the other hand, can benefit from
refrigeration.

--
Ned Simmons

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why We Need to Have Empathy for Tea Party Lunatics
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/03ecfef2321238cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 11:20 am
From: sittingduck

By Michael Bader, AlterNet
Posted on March 2, 2010, Printed on March 2, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/145848/

These Tea Party folks seem to most liberals -- well, to most of us who live
in the "reality community," or, as I like to call it, "reality" --- like
crazy fuckers.

As a recent New York Times article reports, this hodgepodge of people and
groups spout frankly paranoid beliefs as received wisdom, e.g. the Federal
Reserve is our enemy and should be abolished; citizens should stock up on
ammo, gold; and survival food in anticipation of an impending Civil War;
states should "nullify" federal laws and even secede; medical records are
being shipped to federal bureaucrats; the army is seeking
"Internment/Resettlement" specialists; and Obama is trying to create crises
in order to destroy the economy, convert Interpol into his personal police
force and create a New World Order.

Conspiracy theories involving shadowy elites like the Trilateral Commission
and the Council on Foreign Relations have resurfaced. Self-defense and
armed resistance are frequently called for. Racist stereotypes, innuendo
and hostility run rampant. The Constitution is its sacred text and Glenn
Beck its most beloved prophet. They don't usually wear aluminum hats but
perhaps they should.

I hate these folks but I also understand them. And, well, uh, I also
empathize with them. They share the same psychology as the paranoid
patients I treat every day. The only difference is that the paranoid
beliefs of the Tea Party movement are political while those in my
consulting room are of a more personal nature. The causes and dynamics,
however, are the same. And so just as I have empathy for my patients, I
have come to have empathy for the Tea Partiers, even as I despise their
influence and work hard to defeat their ideology. It's crucial that the
Left does likewise because if we don't understand the ways that decent,
god-fearing, and victimized people can come to espouse such a dangerous
ideology, we won't be able to fight them effectively.

I treat people who are paranoid all the time. Sometimes they're only mildly
paranoid. For example, someone I treat can't tolerate blame of any kind,
can't take any responsibility for failures, and can't really be optimistic
about the potential goodness in others. It's always someone else's fault.
Other times, they're more severely paranoid. A patient I saw spun tale
after tale of slights, interpreted innocuous events as malignant, saw
conspiracies everywhere, and always imputed malevolence to others' motives.
The most extreme cases can be found in the delusions of schizophrenics.

There isn't one cause of paranoia. Tomes have been written about it.
Individual variations and exceptions abound. A few generalizations,
however, can be made. Paranoid people are trying their best to make sense
of and mitigate feelings of helplessness and worthlessness. Their beliefs
are attempts to solve a profound problem, albeit in ways that distort
reality.

People can't tolerate feeling helpless and self-hating for very long. It's
too painful, too demoralizing and too frightening. They have to find an
antidote. They have to make sense of it all in a way that restores their
sense of meaning, their feeling of agency, their self-esteem, and their
belief in the possibility of redemption. They have to. They have no choice.
That's just the way the mind works.

The paranoid strategy is to generate a narrative that finally "explains it
all." A narrative -- a set of beliefs about the way the world is and is
supposed to be -- helps make sense of chaos. It reduces guilt and self-
blame by projecting it onto someone else. And it restores a sense of agency
by offering up an enemy to fight. Finally, it offers hope that if "they" --
the enemy, the conspirators -- can be avoided or destroyed, the paranoid
person's core feelings of helplessness and devaluation will go away.

Take an extreme case. Someone I saw years ago had a paranoid delusion that
orbiting satellites were trying to control his mind. He went to great
lengths to insulate his apartment so as to repel these psychic assaults.
When I got to know him better, I discovered he developed this delusion as a
way to make sense of an ongoing but terrifying experience, the genesis of
which lay in his childhood: that he wasn't a separate person and didn't
have the right to his own thoughts. This terrifying feeling of helpless
vulnerability was rendered comprehensible to him by his delusion about
orbiting satellites. In a paradoxical way, his delusion reduced his terror
even as it generated its own fears and dangers.

Another patient I saw had a daughter who was mentally retarded. When the
daughter's disability was discovered, he felt so helpless and guilty
(normal feelings that were exaggerated by experiences from his own
childhood) that he slowly developed the belief that the daughter had been
the unwitting victim of sexual abuse by relatives, that this abuse had led
to various cognitive arrests, and that treatment for the abuse could and
would restore her to normalcy. In this way, he negated his guilt, and
momentarily overcame his helplessness through a heroic search for a
therapeutic "cure."

While extreme cases, these vignettes illustrate the core truth about
paranoia; namely, that it is an attempt to lessen unbearable feelings of
self-blame and powerlessness. In this special sense, psychotherapists
understand paranoid beliefs as attempts at adaptation and self-healing,
even as these beliefs compromise the ability to test reality and invariably
create suffering of their own.

Paranoid beliefs about President Obama and the government promulgated by
the ultra-right have a similar genesis and meaning. In the Times story
about the Tea Party movement, the writer describes how most Tea Party
activists are not loyal Republicans. "They are frequently political
neophytes," he writes, "who prize independence and tell strikingly similar
stories of having been awakened by the recession. Their families upended by
lost jobs, foreclosed homes and depleted retirement funds, they said they
wanted to know why it happened and whom to blame."

They began listening to Glenn Beck, reading the Federalist Papers, books by
Ayn Rand and George Orwell, and started visiting radical right-wing Web
sites.

The Times writer then makes a crucial observation: "Many describe emerging
from their research as if reborn to a new reality." In other words, like my
patients, the Tea Party folks find in their paranoid views about politics a
narrative that "explains it all," that reduces their sense of helpless
confusion, and that channels their feelings of victimization into one of
self-righteous militancy. They go from passive victim to active agent, from
guilty to innocent, but all at the price of distorting reality into one
full of malevolent conspiracies.

The payoff is that they are no longer confused. They are reborn and now,
thankfully, have the "answer." And that answer is that big forces are
hurting and enslaving them. While these forces include the banks and large
corporations, the main culprit is, of course, the government. People don't
have a direct and immediate experience of Goldman Sachs; they do, however,
experience government every day, not only on television news shows, but via
laws, taxes, public services (or the lack thereof), law enforcement, etc.

Lots of people feel guilty and helpless, of course, and most don't become
paranoid. Some become simply depressed or resigned, others turn to
strategies of distraction or addictive self-medication. Others might face
their feelings more directly, tolerate them, and find alternative
solutions, e.g. turn to friends, therapists or various communities of
support. Still others may find relief for painful feelings by projecting
all meaning and agency onto God. And some simply fight back against
"reality," despite long odds. The psychological reasons one person turns to
paranoia and another seeks a healthier solution are not generally known. It
is also obvious that left-wing conspiracy theorists share much of the same
pathology as those on the right wing of the spectrum.

For new Tea Party members, however, the drift toward paranoia is
facilitated by the right-wing media machine that offers several ready-made
narratives perfectly designed to help its consumers clear up their
confusion, understand their helplessness, absolve them of any blame and
offer a way out. The conspiratorial alliance of business and government, a
growing tyranny intended to disenfranchise, disarm and exploit ordinary
citizens, secret pacts to overthrow the Constitution, etc. all currently
led by an un-American, godless, colored, elitist, contemptuous foreigner:
Barack Hussein Obama. A grim and frightening picture of the world to be
sure. Psychologically speaking, however, it offers relief from helplessness
and a sense that things are falling apart. It offers a sense of cohesion
and identity based on certainty, a commonality of interests, innocence, and
even martyrdom. While the world of the Tea Partiers is filled with danger,
it is a danger mitigated by moral certainty, clarity of purpose and a
definable external enemy.

The "problem," then, is not the paranoid storyline, but the anxiety,
helplessness and pain that generate it. That pain is not irrational or
crazy. It's real. We all feel it. Most of us do feel helpless in relation
to the most important aspects of our lives, from the nature of our work to
its security, from our politicians who are on the corporate dole to those
perpetuating gridlock through their narrow ideology, from the quality of
our health care to its availability, and from the isolation and loneliness
of everyday social life. The pain of self-blaming is also ubiquitous in the
cultural assumption that our lot in life is determined primarily by
individual ability, not by getting help from others. Confusion, anxiety,
disconnectedness and a sense that "things are falling apart" are not crazy
feelings. They are accurate and valid responses to a highly alienated and
often abusive social world.

The "problem" is that Tea Party activists move from legitimate feelings and
normal longings to paranoid political positions that are dangerous and
cruel. But because these positions serve an important psychological
function, because they resolve an emotional dilemma, they can't be changed
by rational argument. I have never been able to help a paranoid patient
even a little bit by arguing with his or her view of reality. Not one bit.
The only way I have been able to make any headway is using our relationship
to provide real experiences that have a shot at providing an alternative
and more satisfying "solution" to their underlying fears. Only then can I
begin to offer a counter-narrative, one that acknowledges their pain and
innocence, but enables them to more accurately identify its sources and,
therefore, its antidote.

Perhaps the progressive movement shouldn't waste its time dealing with the
Tea Party movement except as a spur to get our own house -- and movement --
in order. A legitimate argument can be made that these people are, simply,
the enemy and that our challenge is to build progressive majorities immune
to their sabotage and interference.

But I would argue that to the extent we want to reach people who are drawn
to Tea Party, patriot, libertarian, and other right-wing movements but are
not yet hard-line ideologues, or prevent others from becoming so, we have
to begin with empathy. We have to get inside their heads, figure out how
their choices are reasonable from their point of view. It would help if we
found ways to get into relationship with them, to demonstrate a genuine
curiosity not about their paranoid theories but about the underlying pain
and fear that is the source of them.

In this way, perhaps we can figure out how to speak to that pain and fear
in ways that are both authentic and comforting. Perhaps we can figure out
what experiences they might need to have in order to feel safe enough to at
least listen to another narrative: ours.

Michael Bader is a psychologist and psychoanalyst in San Francisco. He has
written extensively on issues at the interface of psychology, culture, and
politics. For more information, visit his website at www.michaelbader.com.
ï¿½ 2010 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/145848/

--
We have broken from reality--a psychotic Nation. Ignorance with a pretense
of knowledge replacing wisdom. -- Ron Paul

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 15 topics - digest

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