twitter: comp.lang.c - 25 new messages in 8 topics

comp.lang.c
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PEGA/BPM IMPLEMENTATION LEAD / Toronto, ON
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/d967b1dbb89ab520?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:13 am
From: rajesh rajesh

Title: PEGA/BPM IMPLEMENTATION LEAD

Location: Toronto, ON

Description:
Candidate should have extensive experience in Pega/OBPM
Implementations and Project Management, including the hiring of team
members, tracking and reporting on project deliverables, capturing
weekly status meeting minutes and publish action items, and weekly
dashboard reporting. This individual should also have subject matter
expertise in one or more of the domain areas: Banking, Capital
Markets, Life Insurance, P&C Insurance, Health Insurance, Payments,
Wealth Management

Responsibilities include:
* BPM Delivery Lead will be responsible for setting up shared service
best practices - Engagement model, processes, enterprise level
planning etc
* Will carry out delivery BPM planning and project track alignment for
most optimized delivery
* Will be responsible for establishment and enforcement of the BPM
Shared Service processes
* Will manage Stakeholders, Project Managers and Technical Leads and
will provide them guidance, mentoring and act as an escalation point
* Will carry out efficient resource planning and manager resource
onboarding/offboarding with vendors
* Will provide regular update to stakeholders

BPM Consultants with strong business analysis and process flow
skills, with proven ability to understand, re-engineer, improve, and
implement complex business processes.
* Should be a Subject matter expert (Techno-functional) in Oracle BPM
(Business Process Management)
* Should have solid understanding of the system architecture
* Solid product knowledge and knowledge of product functionality
* Solid understanding of Business Process and modeling
* Should have experience with analysis, set-up, configuration and
development.
* Strong experience in oracle BPEL Design and Business Process
Management (BPM) Architecture, OBIEE Fusion intelligence.
* Strong work experience in all Business cycle of ERP (Functional
Domain Expertise in Finance and SAAS (software as a service)
* Experience in customization of reports, forms and in data
conversions /interfaces.
* Expertise in Managing all post implementation support activities
including responding to end user questions, resolving production
issues

Required Technology Experience: Overall 7 years of experience. At
least 5 years of experience in BPM development to provide custom BPM
solutions. Experience includes: mapping workflows with BPM Designer,
writing complex browser and server scripts, developing and integrating
with web services and developing custom controls. Experience in
Savvion BPM tool would be a huge plus. Relational Databases (SQL
Server and/or Oracle, to include having basic SQL Skills) Web
Technologies (e.g. IIS, .NET, HTML, DHTML, XML/XSLT, VB Script/
JavaScript, ASP, IE, Netscape, etc.) VB, Java GUI Design and
Development Web Services SOA experience Note: Although all of the
above technical skill sets are not required, our ideal candidate will
have the majority of the skill sets listed

For more job Description click on the link:

http://globalitjobs.com/job_view.php?id=287

==============================================================================
TOPIC: small question
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/08850414dcd0b366?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:17 am
From: "Bill Cunningham"

Tucker wrote:
> hints is not a pointer, but &hints is a pointer. However, &hints is
> not a variable, so you can't assign to it. You can only assign to
> *(&hints).

[snip]

>>> #include <stdio.h>
>>> #include <stdlib.h>
>>> #include <string.h>
>>> #include <sys/types.h>
>>> #include <netdb.h>
>>> #include <sys/socket.h>
>>>
>>> struct addrinfo hints, *servinfo;
>>> int main()
>>> {
>>> int status;
>>> memset(&hints, '\0', sizeof hints);
>>
>> memeset() requires a pointer as the first parameter. The & on the
>> front of hints takes hints address hence &hints /is/ a pointer
>>
>>> hints.ai_family = AF_INET;
>>> hints.ai_socktype = SOCK_STREAM;
>>> hints.ai_flags = AI_PASSIVE;
>>> if ((status = getaddrinfo(NULL, "23", &hints, &servinfo)) != 0) {
>>> fprintf(stderr, "usage error...%s\n", gai_strerror(status));
>>> exit(1);
>>> }
>>> return status;

I thought & returns an address. Atleast in some cases I'm aware of. Hints is
simply of type struct addrinfo. In this situation does hints act as a
pointer?

Bill

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:19 am
From: "Bill Cunningham"

Bill Cunningham wrote:

Shouldn't be here,

>>> memeset() requires a pointer as the first parameter. The & on the
>>> front of hints takes hints address hence &hints /is/ a pointer

Oh I see now I screwed up the quoting. And I am using OE quote fix.

Bill

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:42 am
From: Keith Thompson

"Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> writes:
[...]
> I thought & returns an address. Atleast in some cases I'm aware of. Hints is
> simply of type struct addrinfo. In this situation does hints act as a
> pointer?

No, Bill, hints is not a pointer, and does not act as a pointer, as
we've told you several times. Why do you not believe us?

hints is an object of type struct addrinfo; that's a struct type, not
a pointer type.

Yes, the unary "&" operator yields an address. An address is also
referred to as a pointer value, or just as a pointer. (The
unqualified word "pointer" often refers to an object of pointer type,
but it can also refer to a value of pointer type.)

So
hints
is not a pointer, but
&hints
is a pointer, specifically a pointer value, or an address.

Perhaps if you saved a copy of this, or printed it out, or wrote it
down, you might not need to ask the same question again.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 10:24 am
From: "Bill Cunningham"

Keith Thompson wrote:

> No, Bill, hints is not a pointer, and does not act as a pointer, as
> we've told you several times. Why do you not believe us?
>
> hints is an object of type struct addrinfo; that's a struct type, not
> a pointer type.
>
> Yes, the unary "&" operator yields an address. An address is also
> referred to as a pointer value, or just as a pointer. (The
> unqualified word "pointer" often refers to an object of pointer type,
> but it can also refer to a value of pointer type.)
>
> So
> hints
> is not a pointer, but
> &hints
> is a pointer, specifically a pointer value, or an address.

I see. I'm confusing & with returning an address. But I've never thought
of it as a pointer. C with me is sink or swim. I just have to dive in.
Sometimes I sink sometimes I swim and sometimes I come back to the surface.

What could've been typed instead of &hints? Maybe (*hints)? I need to
review ponters. Maybe *(hints)?

Bill

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 11:33 am
From: Keith Thompson

"Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> writes:
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>
>> No, Bill, hints is not a pointer, and does not act as a pointer, as
>> we've told you several times. Why do you not believe us?
>>
>> hints is an object of type struct addrinfo; that's a struct type, not
>> a pointer type.
>>
>> Yes, the unary "&" operator yields an address. An address is also
>> referred to as a pointer value, or just as a pointer. (The
>> unqualified word "pointer" often refers to an object of pointer type,
>> but it can also refer to a value of pointer type.)
>>
>> So
>> hints
>> is not a pointer, but
>> &hints
>> is a pointer, specifically a pointer value, or an address.
>
> I see. I'm confusing & with returning an address. But I've never thought
> of it as a pointer.

Well there's your problem. In C, the words "address" and "pointer"
mean nearly the same thing, particularly when referring to values.
We don't usually talk about an address object or an address type;
rather we refer to these as a pointer object or a pointer type,
respecitvely. But an address value (such as the address of an
object) is a pointer value.

> C with me is sink or swim. I just have to dive in.
> Sometimes I sink sometimes I swim and sometimes I come back to the surface.

I have yet to see you surface.

> What could've been typed instead of &hints? Maybe (*hints)? I need to
> review ponters. Maybe *(hints)?

You could have typed anything you like. Most of the things you could
have typed would be wrong, because they'd be wild guesses.

What made you even consider the possibility that (*hints) or *(hints)
(both of which are equivalent to *hints) could be a reasonable
substitute for &hints?

If &hints is correct, why are you looking for an alternative?

Stop guessing. Don't type the '*' or '&' character into either a C
source file or a Usenet article until you understand what it means.
If you don't already understand what it means, look it up.

I've told you this before.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Endless arguing
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/a99361379a499175?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 8:48 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-12, osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> No single human could possibly have any effect on the amount of faulty
> information that exists. You might as well decide to stop the ocean tides.

Is that true? You should check snopes.

-s
--
Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nospam@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:20 am
From: jameskuyper

Army1987 wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 07:14:03 -0500, osmium wrote:
>
> >> For example, if none of the careful deceits and misrepresentations are
> >> challenged someone reading the words - either now or at some time in
> >> the future - may believe them to be true.
> >
> > No single human could possibly have any effect on the amount of faulty
> > information that exists. You might as well decide to stop the ocean
> > tides.
>
> It is possible to clean all the streets in Paris in one quarter of an
> hour: all that is needed is for everybody to clean the street they live
> in.

That's a bad analogy. Responding to a troll does not remove the
garbage he's already produced; it's more closely analogous to putting
up a flag next to the garbage, warning people of it's presence.
Furthermore, that "flag" has a nasty side-effect: it encourages the
troll to produce more garbage.

Fixing up your analogy to match this reality would involve having the
people of Paris act like idiots (and I'm not trying to suggest that
they are): instead of removing the garbage, each one would have to put
out a piece of food next to each piece of garbage they found on their
own street - to warn people that there's a piece of garbage there.
Various animals would come by to eat the food, adding their own fresh
contribution to the garbage. The citizens of Paris would put out more
food to mark the fresh garbage, etc... How quickly would the streets
of Paris be cleaned up by that approach?

Trying to combat trolls by pointing out their errors may not seem as
stupid as the above behavior. However, it's equally counterproductive,
and the "end" results are of comparable quality.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:45 am
From: jacob navia

Morris Keesan a écrit :
> Quoting someone on a BBC radio programme from a few weeks ago:
>
> -"Remember, if you choose to argue with an idiot, the best possible
> outcome is that you've won an argument with an idiot."-
>
Well, there were around 270 messages in the first thread about Schildt's
book, and there are several hundreds in the following messages.

When I posted a request about allocators for the container library, I
received 2 answers.

Yes, TWO, much less than the guy that asked the answer of 0.5*0.5. This
shows the priorities of people here. Most of them aren't able to follow
a technical discussion or have no interest in technical discussions, the
C language or whatever. Their only interest is showing off, inflating
their (already bloated) egos, and similar nonsense.

jacob

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:50 am
From: Richard Heathfield

stan wrote:
> James Harris wrote:
>> On 12 Apr, 05:00, "Morris Keesan" <mkee...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting someone on a BBC radio programme from a few weeks ago:
>>>
>>> -"Remember, if you choose to argue with an idiot, the best possible
>>> outcome is that you've won an argument with an idiot."-
>> There's some truth in the quote but there are other factors to
>> consider.
>>
>> For example, if none of the careful deceits and misrepresentations are
>> challenged someone reading the words - either now or at some time in
>> the future - may believe them to be true.
>
> Do you honestly think that can justify the S/N here?

Do you honestly think the S/N ratio will improve if the noisemakers go
unchallenged?

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:53 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-12, jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> wrote:
> When I posted a request about allocators for the container library, I
> received 2 answers.

I don't know about the recent one, but I know I've responded to previous
questions on that topic.

It's not a topic I am hugely invested in, just because I don't think a
container library is a good fit for the way I've usually seen C used, but
I think it's interesting, and I have certainly made suggestions about it.

Fundamentally, though, you're working on something that most of the people
here don't think they need, and you aren't saying things which are hilariously
over the top and obviously wrong. When you do say things which are obviously
wrong, you get more responses, but they're all corrections.

I suspect some of what you're seeing is inertia of various forms; most of us
already have or don't need a list library, for instance. I quite simply
can't comprehend when I'd end up wanting a "container". I can see when I
want lists, or when I want arrays, but I can't conceive of ever writing a
piece of code in which I want a container but don't care which of those it
is, or in which my choice of list or array would change. As a result, I
simply don't see "container" as a useful abstraction for writing code.

A similar design for, say, a hash library, which was unambiguously a library
for hashes and not for any other sort of thing, might be very interesting
to me, because I've not been especially happy with the hash libraries I've
seen.

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 10:46 am
From: "osmium"

Richard Heathfield wrote:

> Do you honestly think the S/N ratio will improve if the noisemakers go
> unchallenged?

No question at all about it, yes. Spinoza can make, maybe five posts a day,
but attracts responses like a turd in the middle of the street attracts
crows. Look at the Spinoza threads and see how many are made by him and how
many are made by others.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 11:12 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-12, osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> Do you honestly think the S/N ratio will improve if the noisemakers go
>> unchallenged?

> No question at all about it, yes. Spinoza can make, maybe five posts a day,
> but attracts responses like a turd in the middle of the street attracts
> crows. Look at the Spinoza threads and see how many are made by him and how
> many are made by others.

I think he makes way more than five a day. But yes, he does tend to end up
with more responses than his original posts. And yes, I would agree that
at this point, "challenging" the noisemakers isn't doing anything.

Step 1: Killfile Nilges.
Step 2: Encourage other people to do so.
Step 3: Try to keep responses to anything in his threads strictly topical.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 11:26 am
From: Keith Thompson

Richard Heathfield <rjh@see.sig.invalid> writes:
> stan wrote:
>> James Harris wrote:
>>> On 12 Apr, 05:00, "Morris Keesan" <mkee...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quoting someone on a BBC radio programme from a few weeks ago:
>>>>
>>>> -"Remember, if you choose to argue with an idiot, the best
>>>> possible outcome is that you've won an argument with an idiot."-
>>> There's some truth in the quote but there are other factors to
>>> consider.
>>>
>>> For example, if none of the careful deceits and misrepresentations are
>>> challenged someone reading the words - either now or at some time in
>>> the future - may believe them to be true.
>>
>> Do you honestly think that can justify the S/N here?
>
> Do you honestly think the S/N ratio will improve if the noisemakers go
> unchallenged?

YES!

The vast majority of Nilges' posts are responses to responses to his
earlier posts. Attempts to address his technical errors, even while
ignoring his crap, result in more of his crap.

I don't know whether he would stop posting if everyone ignored him,
but I suspect his volume would drop considerably, and what we're doing
now certainly isn't working.

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 11:35 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-12, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
> The vast majority of Nilges' posts are responses to responses to his
> earlier posts. Attempts to address his technical errors, even while
> ignoring his crap, result in more of his crap.

Yes. Perhaps more importantly, they almost never result even in
*improved* crap. It's not as if he's improving.

> I don't know whether he would stop posting if everyone ignored him,
> but I suspect his volume would drop considerably, and what we're doing
> now certainly isn't working.

Usually, they escalate further and further to try to continue to
elicit narcissistic supply (responses, especially responses which
appear to imply that he's got some kind of point or qualification),
and eventually melt down completely and go do something else.

Oddly, critics are nearly as good a response as praise. They at
least imply that he's really participating and shaping outcomes.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: In the Matter of Herb Schildt: a Detailed Analysis of "C: The Complete
Nonsense"
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/caf17fab4e7d8530?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:29 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 10, 9:47 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
> > I need a full link; this has ellipses.
>
> Digression:
>
> "This"? presumably you mean the message ID in my post? I don't
> want to discourage you from making some attempt to prune quoted
> text, but aren't you supposed to leave in enough that people can
> make sense of your reply just on the basis of what's quoted?
> Well, moving on, and ignoring whether it should be "ellipses"
> or "ellipsis" ....
>

Unabridged OED confirms "ellipses" for the plural. In general,
literate people tend to spell Greek words that end in -is with -es
following the Greek rule. I used plural because I am referring to
three dots. I am not certain whether that latter microdecision was
correct.

<snip>
>
> Anyway, here is a URL that works for me:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/f86ace21f0dd9892?hl=en...

for (count = 0, t = strstr(target, in); t && *t; t = strstr(t, in)) {
++count;
t += inlen;
}

(1) Apples and oranges. My code was intended not to count occurences
but to replace them.
(2) Your code uses string.h. My purpose was to avoid it.
(3) Your code does not, as far as I can see, count overlapping
occurences such as in the two occurences of 123123 in 123123123.

>
> I don't have a lot of confidence that it's going to work for you too,
> but it's the best I can do.

You claim simplicity as the virtue of your code but you didn't do a
"requirements" study imo.
>
> I also noticed, in the process of trying to come up with a usable
> URL, that there's rather a lot of code, and at least some of it is
> not especially polished, so I'm not sure it's really worth your
> time to try to wade through. But it's a fairly representative
> example of the kind of code I write for my own use -- not the
> best, not the worst, but fairly representative. For code to be
> shown to students I'm apt to put in more comments. <shrug>
>
> > I look forward, quite
> > seriously, to reading your code.
>
> That sounds collegial enough. (Maybe. I can think of another
> interpretation.)

No, if you're Hunting for a Snark, see friend Seebach.

>
> > snipola
<snip>
>
> The factors I had in mind included, oh, affinity between the
> language and the problem domain (e.g., APL is apparently very
> good for problems that can expressed in terms of working on arrays
> or lists), suitability for the target hardware/software platform,
> the programmer's background and interests, and probably some others
> I'm not thinking of right now.

But phrasing this as an engineering problem means you're basically
abusing human beings. It's one thing to be a civil engineer and master
Nature. It's quite another to distort yourself and your perceptions in
order to meet corporate programming expectations. For example, if the
flavor du jour is a false "simplicity" it's a disservice to subtly
change the requirements and to even unintentionally try to make
someone who's met requirements look "wrong".

<snip>
> Did you have a point to make here, or is this just a demonstration
> that you're just as willing to be vulgar when conversing(?) with a
> woman as with a man?

Yes. It is that compared to stalking Schildt, the constant verbal
assaults on unpopular posters including Kenny, Navia and myself, and
the disagreeable manners shown mainland Chinese posters, ironic sexism
is pretty small potatoes.

Charges of "sexism" have become in fact the equivalent to the Catholic
rules on jerking off that I grew up with. It's a set of rules that
have become detached from any foundational notion of not harming
another human being. If I genuinely thought my metaphorical/symbolic
crotch grabs created, for you, a sexist environment worse, for you,
than the toxic environment created here for male posters, I'd be the
first to desist. But I don't.

<snip>

> I'll admit to a preference for UNIX-like environments -- but the
> thing is, declaring main() to return an int is compliant with the
> C standard for what it calls "hosted environments" and presumably
> will work on platforms that don't care about the return value as well
> as those that do. So to me this is the more portable choice and
> therefore the better one.

I think that part of this talk about "portability" is grandiose, a
programmer fantasy that "my code is so great that generations yet
unborn will want to port it".

The fact is that C is not portable. Because it is possible to make
things subtly dependent on hardware, any port needs a great deal of
diligence. The fact that this diligence isn't manifest doesn't change
this.

If you want to write portable code, it is folly to int main(). Use
Java or C Sharp. Connected to the grandiosity of portability is the
Fear of the Senior Programmer that his lack of formal education in
computer science will be exposed in trying to learn a new language.
This is not your fear, but I think Seebach has it.

<snip>

> > It's
> > basically (cf Lanier's book) just a copy of unix, based on the work of
> > an author other than the millionaire Torvaldys whose work was stolen
> > by Torvaldys much as MS-DOS was stolen. The same sleaze and inferior
> > praxis occurs in both communities.
>
> I don't quite understand who you're saying stole from whom here,
> but whatever. (I'm also not sure why you spell the Linux
> originator's name with a y, when no one else seems to, but
> "whatever" on that too.)

An infinite number of spelling flames will not establish a higher
level of literacy.

>
> > > Oh, and that comment about writing code for embedded systems --
> > > aren't there different rules (about the signature of main()) for
> > > free-standing and hosted implementations anyway?
>
> > Which means, of course, that the Linux expectation should not control,
> > get it yet?
>
> If it were only Linux, maybe not -- but it's not, as discussed
> previously.

Sure, it's a...command line limitation...from Linux, unix and MS-DOS.
Not exactly cuttin' edge.

>
> Further, if I understand the standard correctly, a freestanding
> implementation can make its own rules about the signature of the
> "main" program, including calling it something other than main(),
> and it isn't required to provide all the libraries required for
> a hosted environment, so it's not clear that it makes sense
> to try to write complete programs that are portable across the
> freestanding/hosted divide. Writing programs that work in any
> hosted environment seems like a more tractable problem, and worth
> doing when one can.

But as I said, this is grandiosity relative to the normal problem,
which is to write for a specific environment. In the diligence that is
required even for "portable" code which might have tricks in it given
that C permits them, it's easy enough to change the main.
>
<snip>
> > Back to 1984...
>
> Instead you want us all to conform to the expectations of a
> platform defined and owned by another corporate entity (Microsoft)
> whose reputation is not exactly spotless?

This is associative thinking, where if one's affiliated with Microsoft
in some way the inference is made, rather childishly based on Lucas'
myths in Star Wars etc., that one's gone over to the Dark Side.
Whereas merely using Linux, a copy of unix, which could be considered
a considerably improved MS-DOS since MS-DOS was a misunderstood unix,
and all three are based on Western Union Teletypewriter IO, is
supposed to make one one of the Shining Ones, even if one works for an
Israeli firm, say, that deliberately mistranslates Iranian government
statements in order to deceive the Americans.

At least Microsoft pays its developers. Furthermore, minorities need
to learn it and I prefer working at campuses like DeVry where people
show up for classes and major in what they plan to profess.

>
> Now that I think about it, I'm rather surprised by this apparent
> preference of yours for Windows, given its corporate associations.
> But whatever.
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > > The thing that's amusing here, or ironic, or something, is that
> > > for me the fact that your writing is for the most part free of the
> > > more obvious kinds of errors lends it a credibility it otherwise
> > > might not have.
>
> > The meaning of my literacy is that more more intelligent and more
> > decent than most people here.
>
> I can't parse that sentence, sorry.

Replace the "more" by "I'm". I think in fact highly enough of your
reading skills to wonder if the lady doth feign.

The Lady doth feign,
She's playing a game
Of pretending not to understand
The thought she can't stand

>
> [ snip ]
>
> > > Well, you never know. One thing I figured out a long time ago is
> > > that some people come across as being smarter than they actually
> > > are, by virtue of being articulate and self-confident, while others
> > > who are actually very bright fly under the radar, so to speak.
>
> > This is an urban legend.
>
> You do realize that when I said "I figured out" I meant that
> I, well, figured it out, based on my own experiences, rather
> than simply believing something I was told, right? I guess it's
> possible that someone else did draw my attention to it, but if
> so I believed it because it accorded with my own experience.

It remains a data processing myth which has created several software
crises, because it's more convenient to the corporation to celebrate
idiot savants than men and women.

<snip>
> My own thinking is that academic credentials are a useful screening
> mechanism in the absence of other information about a person,
> but the correlation between them and genuine qualifications is
> not 100%. Indeed, I strongly suspect you'd claim that you're
> more qualified than your academic credentials might imply, no?

Yes, but in Seebach's case the lack has real consequences. I did take
the classes and worked for the grades: he did not. The final
credential is what's missing in my case, but it appears that Seebach
didn't leave the starting gate.

Furthermore, anyone with any respect for learning would never (and I
mean never) reduce university attendance as opposed to final
credentials to a "useful screening mechanism".

>
> [ snip ]
>
> > > > I'm not making this shit up, luv.
>
> > > Again with the patronizing forms of address .... Knock it off,
> > > would you?
>
> > Not until you start showing more solidarity with the victims of the
> > cybernetic mobs that so frequently form in this newsgroup owing to
> > enabling language expressed in dulcet tones, hon.
>
> Duly noted. I doubt it will change my behavior.
>
> > "Patronizing forms of address" are not a matter of syntax, but of
> > intent, and it is a form of fashionable autism to judge another's
> > sexism by means of keywords alone. I refuse to allow you to make any
> > inferences about my sexism for essentially the same reason I refuse to
> > allow Seebach to make inferences about what Schildt knows based on his
> > own, very limited and very biased, knowledge.
>
> Refuse all you want. I've drawn a tentative conclusion about
> your attitudes based on the many posts of yours I've read over
> the years. That this conclusion is somewhat at odds with your
> claims above is -- no surprise. <shrug>

You sure you don't work for Human Resources? The abstract rejection
for the sake of rejection and then the shrug.
>
> > Language, in this and many other newsgroups, is used so often
> > ironically by chattering ape-men who in a truly bizarre fashion have a
> > cargo cult theory that words mean single things. They use it to lie
> > and then they hold others to the truth.
>
> > My sexism is ironic. Real malice, of the sort shown Kenny, Navia,
> > Schildt, Chinese visitors and myself, as well as competent female
> > programmers, is my concern here.
>
> I have no idea what "ironic" means here.

It means I'm pulling your leg.
>
> > > > The New York Times did a followup circa 1997 of the Princeton computer
> > > > science fe-male
>
> > > Okay, I guess I'm going to ask -- why the hyphen?
>
> > A deliberate affectation.
>
> No idea what this means either.

OED: An ostentatious fondness for something; a studied display
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > > > Tu quoque is the favorite argument of criminals,
>
> > > I don't agree that I'm making a "tu quoque" argument; I'm making
> > > a point about what I perceive as -- oh, "hypocrisy" is too strong
> > > a word, I suppose, but I can't think of a milder one.
>
> > Well how about "I like making tu quoque arguments?"
>
> Milder but in no way expressive of my intended meaning.
>
> I would be mildly interested in an explanation of how anything I've
> said constitutes a tu quoque argument.

Each spelling flame is one, since you want to disprove my claim that
I'm more literate by bringing down to the level of normalized
deviance. You will fail.
>
> --
> B. L. Massingill
> ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:51 am
From: Tim Streater

In article
<c474d1c9-77dd-4d0d-a1c0-74996f5414aa@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
spinoza1111 <spinoza1111@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

> The fact is that C is not portable. Because it is possible to make
> things subtly dependent on hardware, any port needs a great deal of
> diligence. The fact that this diligence isn't manifest doesn't change
> this.
>
> If you want to write portable code, it is folly to int main(). Use
> Java or C Sharp.

Just because you don't know how to write portable code in C, bozo, does
not mean that others can't. At SLAC in the mid-late 80s, we had a
threads kernel written in C (that supported events, semaphores, timers
[1], and thread priorities) that it was no great effort to port to DEC's
VAX/VMS and to IBM's VM/CMS. That's substantially different OSes,
different endiannesses [2], and different character sets. It's called
being professional, Spinny. You should try it sometime instead of just
being a mouth.

[1] Some of this work exposed bugs in IBM's timer services that (having
access to the assembler source code) we fixed.

[2] which affected how structs were packed, as I recall, so that
required some care.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689

==============================================================================
TOPIC: seebs/schildt II
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/c86133d7ad6b90c2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:34 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 12, 11:12 am, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> On 2010-04-12, William Hughes <wpihug...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Get help!
>
> Oh, come now. What could be better evidence of a successful and fulfilling
> life than using an anonymous news service to post insulting messages directed
> at someone you don't know and have never had any kind of interaction with,
> on a daily basis? I am sure that, were Anonymous Coward to remember to log
> in to post*, we'd find that he was a high-karma user.
>
> -s
> [*] You know, like on slashdot.
> --
> Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.nethttp://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

I agree with Seebach. The guy who started this thread is a Lanier
troll, someone who anonymously posts a drive-by insult. The post was
uncalled for. Anyone who doesn't want to technically analyze Schildt v
Seebach and contribute constructive discourse (such as the fact that
the purpose of int main() is to make Linux into a standard, or the
fact that C semantics was not defined properly in C99 owing to vendor
greed) needs to stay out of this discussion.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: dynamic buffer allocation at char buf[1]
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/969816eb2d0fdbaf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:39 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-12, Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> wrote:
[in reference to:]
> )|>> For example: unsigned long exif_tag = 'EXIF';

> For the record: I encountered it in C code for AmigaOS, for reading
> their standard image format (IFF). This was in the early nineties.

Trivia point: IFF is not just an image format, but an all-purpose file
format definition, used as well for many other types of data. It's actually
still in use, somewhat, although the widespread existence of datums in
excess of 4GB has reduced its appeal slightly.

It's actually a really *good* format. I believe it was developed by
Electronic Arts, although C= standardized on it.

IFF is a great example of how to design a file format which is reasonably
friendly to efficient use in C, and flexible/powerful enough to be a good
fit for many tasks.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nilgewater about void main()
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/383e6d5a95dc3f75?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:44 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 12, 11:57 pm, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> On 2010-04-12, J de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePoll...@Tesco.NET> wrote:
>
> > Actually, there is. You've stopped reading one third of
> > the way through a sentence. Read all of the way to the
> > end of that sentence. Then read for a few more sections
> > beyond that point, as well.
>
> Have read the whole thing. For hosted environments, the only forms that
> a compiler must accept are "int main(void)", "int main (int argc, char
> **argv)", and things directly compatible with those. (e.g., you can use
> a typedef, or write "char *argv[]").
>
> The standard does allow an implementation freedom to define additional
> forms of main() that it will accept, true. But that doesn't mean that it
> doesn't mandate a return type of int. That one implementation accepts
> something doesn't make it standard C.

But, it does. It makes it what the standard calls standard C for a
"freestanding" environment, in 5.1.2.1. This environment doesn't even
need a main() and can, but doesn't have to, be restricted to a minimal
library.
>
> If you write "int main(int argc, char **argv)", every hosted C compiler
> *must* accept your program. If you write "void main(void)", any hosted C
> compiler *may* reject your program.

And if you write "int main(int argc, char **argv)" any freestanding,
standard C compiler or its environment *may* reject your program.
However, a computer scientist would be more concerned, not with the
subaltern-childish "rejection" of his program but whether his program
is correct.

You seem to have a consistent problem with the road not taken by your
logic, as in the case of your failure to properly assign db_header in
queue.c.

>
> Compare this with, say:
>
> static int i = getchar();
>
> Obviously, prohibited by the standard, but nothing prevents a compiler
> from generating code from it.
>
> -s
> --
> Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.nethttp://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:46 am
From: Richard Heathfield

Nick Keighley wrote:
> On 12 Apr, 14:58, Richard Heathfield <r...@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
>> SG wrote:
>>> On 12 Apr., 15:07, spinoza wrote:
>>>> Similarly, Seebach lies about the standard
>>>> because it doesn't mandate int main(),
>>> What's your definition of "it mandates" in this context? The standard
>>> says that implementations must accept main functions of type
>>> void(void) and void(int,char*[]) (or equivalent).
>> No, it most certainly does not say any such thing. What it says is that
>> *hosted* implementations must accept main functions of type int(void),
>> int(int, char **), or equivalent (note the return type - int, not void).
>> Implementations *may* accept main functions of other types, but are not
>> required so to do.
>
> does it explicitly say that?

See 2.1.2.2, or its C99 equivalent.

Note the introductory words: "A hosted environment need not be provided,
but *shall* conform to the following specifications if present." (My
*asterisks*.)

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 10:04 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 12, 4:31 pm, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> On 12 Apr, 06:20, spinoza1111 <spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > [refuting Kennedy assination conspiracy theories (I couldn't parody this stuff)]
> > Similarly, Seebach lies about the
> > standard because it doesn't mandate int main(),
>
> weeell,
>
> "Hosted Environment
> The function called at program startup is named main. [...] It can be
> defined with no parameters
> int main (void) { /*...*/ }
> "
>
> (and then goes on the discuss argv and argc).
>
> There is no hint of void main (or any other return type other than
> int). This may be open to interpretation (I don't think so, but other
> people do) but that isn't lieing.
>
> > it allows a hosted
> > implementation to expect something in the stack after the termination
> > of main().
>
> Schildt isn't discussing standalone implementations.

He certainly isn't restricting the discussion to hosted Linux
implementations. He's discussing a variety of implementations where
the goal is not to create the Great American Portable Program, but to
get a job done. These would include many, many environments in Windows
where the C code is called by a GUI and for this reason, no main()
need appear.

To believe that the "typical" C program even has a main() is grandiose
folly, for it means that the "typical" C program is assigned some
important task by a Father (the OS, or an Important command shell).
But few people here seem to have the level of skill as computer
scientists or OS programmers to be other than Walter Mittys, who
fantasize that someday they might turn from ordinary application
programmers to Great OS and Compiler Developers.

No, we use C when we need to call a critical routine from Java which
won't call main() and will define the needs of the host. Hell, it
might need to "return" void.

Expecting portability from C is also grandiose folly, since its
semantics are so ill-defined that it's malpractice, when transferring
a C program to a different computer architecture, to not review every
line preferably in a group setting or in pair programming. If you
don't want to do this, use Java or C Sharp.

To infer from an int main() to portability is folly on steroids...as
most people here know. To gravely pronounce a code snippet here
submitted for serious review by the few grownups here "bad" because
its main() is void is more foolishness.

Like the Troglodytes in Plato's cave of Unknowing, you confuse
Schildt's deliberately dumbed down examples, and your own production,
with the reality...say the reality I faced when I had to write an
actual, 26000 line compiler for most of Quick Basic on my own time and
dime in San Francisco budget hotels, and I toasted my friend's laptop
with a Starbuck's venti.

Harbison and Steele looks better than Schildt, because the issue is
Seebach's uninformed stalking, not the quality of Schildt.

But it doesn't look like a book with truly portable code that works
anywhere. To get that, you have to use Java or C Sharp.
>
> <snip>
>
> --
>
> "The expression isn't unclear *at all* and only an expert could
> actually
> have doubts about it" - Dan Pop 2001-02-06

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 10:06 am
From: spinoza1111

No, you couldn't [even] parody it, because you don't read outside your
field, and you move your lips when you read inside it. The fact is
that Bugliosi exposes the same childish thought patterns manifest in
Seebach: the failure to do homework, the deliberate concealment of
evidence, the use of the Internet to lend false authority, and the
dreamlike associativity of thought.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 11:29 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 12, 10:24 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blm...@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
> In article <6be118ea-7c38-487d-b183-b0ad252ce...@12g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12 Apr, 15:07, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On 12 Apr, 10:03, blm...@myrealbox.com <blm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <slrnhs4uqc.qlr.usenet-nos...@guild.seebs.net>,
> > > > > Please put [NILGES] in subject lines when responding to him or threads
> > > > > about him so people can killfile them more easily,
>
> > > > As I understand it, Google's posting interface strips tags in square
> > > > brackets from subject lines, so your proposed fix here may not be as
> > > > effective as you might like. Just sayin'.
>
> > > this is a test.
> > > this is posted from google and the subject line should contain square
> > > brackets
>
> > well I can see em
>
> As can I (using news.individual.net). However, Seebs's subject line
> was
>
> "Re: [NILGES] Son of Snarky Tirade: a response to Seebach's new CTCN: part 1"
>
> and yours doesn't seem to have the beginning "[NILGES]". That's what
> I thought would happen.
>
> So maybe the trick is to put the text in square brackets at the end
> rather than the beginning?
>
> (Cue chorus of ungrateful whining about what GG has done for/to/with
> Usenet .... )
>
> --
> B. L. Massingill
> ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

The hatred in this discussion, the ignorance, and the fear...you're
discussing how to kill someone metaphorically. You're not even human
enough to be real Nazis. Instead, you're in many ways more evil since
so cowardly wanting a Second Life as powerful beings who can
"kill" (file) people you don't like. You also seem to me to be
simultaneously fascinated by the technology of eliminating the most
intelligent and best-educated discussant, and incompetent even at
that.

Seebach refused McGraw Hill's offer of a tech review job, probably not
mainly because it wasn't enough money, but because that would involve
meeting with Schildt, and Seebach is a coward. That's plain. Early in
this discussion, I sent him email as is customary in an incipient
flame war to avoid a flame war. He refused to answer or read that
email.

What an asshole!

This has gone to a formal wikipedia complaint. The next step will be a
book or an article on Internet bullying by employed "professionals"
and this will be a case study.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Line drawing with Bresenham more than one pixel thick
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/a26c26d92f082ac7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 12 2010 9:41 am
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-12, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
> Gazza <garywi25@googlemail.com> writes:
> [...]
>> Thanks for all of your comments. I will be more careful next time when
>> posting a question to a group. I thought that more or you would be
>> interested in solving the issue than complaining about using the wrong
>> group. Many apologies if I offended anyone by asking a question I
>> thought that you would be able to answer as C programmers. Special
>> thanks to those who actually gave some guidance.

> Part of the purpose of redirecting a question to a more appropriate
> group is that you can get more and better answers there, and those
> answers can be checked by more people who are actually familiar with
> the topic.

Yes. I could give all sorts of advice about line drawing algorithms, but
you'd have to be pretty dumb to take my advice on it, because the sole
extent of my actual experience is refactoring a 3-page function written
in pascal into a 15-line function in C for use in a roguelike game.

I would guess that the vast majority of C programmers have never had
any reason to write a line-drawing algorithm outside of some kind of
toy project in school, but that the vast majority of graphics programmers,
regardless of language, will be at least basically familiar with the
range.

Basically, it's silly to expect people to be more interested in solving
a problem that's of no interest to them and of no relevance to their fields
of study and work, than they are in suggesting that you ask people whose
line of work it would be in.

Would you come to a group of mathematicians to ask for advice about
double-entry bookkeeping, on the grounds that it's done by some kind of
arithmetic, which is a branch of mathematics?

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Monday, April 12, 2010

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