comp.lang.c - 26 new messages in 8 topics - digest

comp.lang.c
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c?hl=en

comp.lang.c@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Exercise from Kernagan and Richie - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/32e394ad7ea38efe?hl=en
* C the complete nonsense - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/fee08dfa5e4cbaaa?hl=en
* Generic linked list with internal storage? - 6 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/d36ff63bef634bcc?hl=en
* Personal attacks by moderators in a moderated group are unprofessional - 4
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/fcaffc6b8db42751?hl=en
* In the Matter of Herb Schildt: a Detailed Analysis of "C: The Complete
Nonsense" - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/caf17fab4e7d8530?hl=en
* Question about void - 9 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/7cda9a8237a38531?hl=en
* Biographies of Living Persons issue re-opened for Herbert Schildt - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/170bb25b2f0c7a61?hl=en
* C: The Complete Nonsense (4th Edition) - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/c680d289fb50dd06?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exercise from Kernagan and Richie
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/32e394ad7ea38efe?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 11:18 am
From: Phil Bradby

James Harris wrote:
> for (i = 0; i < lim - 1; i++) {
> c = getchar();
> if (c == '\n') break;
> if (c == EOF) break;
> s[i] = c;
> }
>
> for (i = 0; i < lim - 1; i++) {
> c = getchar();
> if (c == '\n')
> i = lim - 2;
> else if (c == EOF)
> i = lim - 2;
> else s[i] = c;
> }

Interesting. I'd read the question as requiring the same loop body, with
only a change in the stopping condition to rewrite it without && or ||.

Cheers,
PB

==============================================================================
TOPIC: C the complete nonsense
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/fee08dfa5e4cbaaa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 11:25 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 10, 1:23 am, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> On 2010-04-09, Rod Pemberton <do_not_h...@havenone.cmm> wrote:
>
> > "Seebs" <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote in message
> >news:slrnhrtikm.stj.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net...
> >> [FAT filesystem]
> > Did you just pollu..., uh, crosspost to, comp.os.msdos.programmer with OT
> > c.l.c. crud just because JdeBP mentioned 8.3 filenames?
>
> I didn't pay attention to the headers, so presumably they'd been set
> previously.

This is the heart of the darkness right here,
Where dogs do fight in the small of night,
Where from the doors of estaminets leer
Faces filth-full, foul and fecund with spite.
Again he whimpers for understanding,
Having made another stupid mistake,
All the while he's grandstanding,
Robbing reputation's grave to reputation take.
He won't let Schildt off for a jot or tittle,
He slanders him for shibboleth, savagely,
But he fucks up right down the middle
And for charity asks so charmingly.
A charity men would give him freely
But for his hatred, bias, bile and savagery.

>
> -s
> --
> Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.nethttp://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 11:35 am
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 10, 1:48 am, Jason Earl <je...@notengoamigos.org> wrote:
> spinoza1111<spinoza1...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > On Apr 9, 12:15 pm, Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote:
> >> spinoza1111wrote:
> >> It is Schildt's work Seeb's email address is readily available he
> >> could have easily contacted Seeb  (maybe he did). Seebs has
> >> no obligation to work with Schildt. The current review started
> >> directly with your call to treat Schildt honestly. Classify the errors
> >> in some rigorous way starting with mundane to serious and
> >> let the results stand for themselves.
>
> >> Knuth paid for bug reports. Haberson and Steele author
>
> > I don't think Schildt should have to waste his time on thousands of
> > bug reports, especially "bug reports" such as "the 'heap' is a DOS
> > term": yet in the document, Seebach calls for his readers to create
> > bug reports. He sought to flood the internet with thousands of phony
> > bug reports and expect Herb to handle this.
>
> Yes, we already know that.  You think instead that the reader should be
> forced to wade through thousands of bugs.

Hey, why should I have to wade through the flies
In Seebach's great and dismal swamp,
To be dazzled with brilliance that 'tis said lies
Somewhere in the darkness, rain and damp?
What profiteth a man if he wastes weary hour
Only to learn to code int main?
Can such toys as these give physic to the sour
Set a limb without further strain?
What profiteth a man whose head is full of saws
Disconnect with any coherent set of principles,
Simple rules, world-views or great laws
Or anything that unifies these multiples?
None, I say, none, no not again one
Not even grace, nor humor, nor even any fun.

>
> Bug reports are a service.
>
> > This is stalking.
>
> Actually, Seebach is just fixing the deficiencies that you pointed out
> in his previous critique.  He even credits your work:
>
>    I must of course credit Edward Nilges, whose tireless crusade against
>    the deficiencies of the previous version made it clear that a more
>    complete treatment was needed.
>
> Jason

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Generic linked list with internal storage?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/d36ff63bef634bcc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 11:57 am
From: SG

On 9 Apr., 19:08, ImpalerCore wrote:
> SG wrote:
> > Frankly, I'm not too happy about the type-safety.
> > It looks a bit too hacky for my taste.
>
> The easy answer to that question is, "use a different language",
> *cough* C++ STL *cough*, that has better type safety built into the

:-)

> language.  These questions have been around for a very long time,
> and C has tended to remain the way that it is with respect to type
> safety.  I think your criticisms are valid, and agree with them,
> and if it was the only deciding factor, no one would choose C to
> do anything of this sort. In fact, C was around when Stepanov was
> working on his stuff, and he didn't use C.  Hmmm, is that a
> coincidence?
>
> Do you believe that this is a worthy pursuit in C at all?

Depends on what you mean exactly. Is it worth to invent a new
language feature for C to "fix" this? No, I don't think so. I also
think that "generic containers" (whatever they look like) don't belong
into future C standards as part of the library. But that's just my
opinion. Still, I _am_ interested in what people can come up with in
C and what die-hard C programmers consider to be "elegant" designs of
"generic linked lists".

> You're not
> alone if you don't think it is.  However, there are some people who do
> think it is.

Cheers,
SG

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:59 pm
From: Eric Sosman

On 4/9/2010 2:57 PM, SG wrote:
>
> [...] I also
> think that "generic containers" (whatever they look like) don't belong
> into future C standards as part of the library. But that's just my
> opinion. Still, I _am_ interested in what people can come up with in
> C and what die-hard C programmers consider to be "elegant" designs of
> "generic linked lists".

Taking the bait like a true DHCP: I think a generic linked
list package is about as useful as a generic array package.
The linked list is so simple a beast that the code to handle it
isn't complex or difficult enough to bother hiding away behind a
lot of genericized interfaces. Just stick a `struct node *next'
element in the data item of your choice and use open code.

If you've got a lot of linked lists of a lot of disparate
struct types, I could see putting a `struct linkstuff' at the
start of each "payload" struct and using functions that dealt
in `struct linkstuff' objects, casting as needed. This could
be handy with the more exotic flavors of linked list, like lists
built with self-relative offsets instead of pointers. But for
a plain vanilla linked list ... Why bother?

The principal benefits of generic "containers" are, IMHO,
two. For a complex or intricate container -- the AVL tree
that every CS student is forced to write and never uses again,
for example -- writing and debugging the code is enough labor
that it's worth capturing and re-using. But this consideration
doesn't apply for an ordinary linked list; it's more work to
learn the conventions of somebody's function suite than to just
diddle the links directly.

The other benefit is that a suitable package can "contain"
data items that are ignorant of their containment. You want to
put a bunch of `struct tm' instances in a list or a tree or some
such, fine: The list/tree/whatever package manages the navigation,
and the `struct tm' is untouched. In particular, the `struct tm'
can be contained in multiple different containers at the same
time, with its membership fluctuating as the program runs. But
if by "internal storage" you mean "one allocation for metadata
and payload," I don't think this can be made to work.

--
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:57 pm
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-09, Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> wrote:
> Taking the bait like a true DHCP: I think a generic linked
> list package is about as useful as a generic array package.
> The linked list is so simple a beast that the code to handle it
> isn't complex or difficult enough to bother hiding away behind a
> lot of genericized interfaces. Just stick a `struct node *next'
> element in the data item of your choice and use open code.

I think the Linux kernel "embeddable list" may be a genuine
counterexample -- it allows things to be on multiple lists, for
one thing, with shared code.

> But for
> a plain vanilla linked list ... Why bother?

Generally, true. I don't even consciously notice adding a small
list implementation -- it's too trivial to notice.

-s
--
Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nospam@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:02 pm
From: "A. Bolmarcich"

On 2010-04-08, Jef Driesen <jefdriesen@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
> Is there a way to avoid this additional allocation, but without loosing
> the ability to store custom data? Thus I don't want to tie my list to
> the mydata_t structure like this:
>
> typedef struct node_t {
> node_t *prev;
> node_t *next;
> mydata_t data;
> } node_t;

Why not tie the list to the type of data being stored? Doing so allows a
compiler to do type checking that it could not if a generic approach were used.

A cost of having a different list node type for each data type stored in a list
is having a copy of the list functions for each list node type. However, for
lists the functions should be small enough to be suitable for inlining. A
compiler would see the instantiaton of the functions for each list type, but
the resulting code would be inlined pointer operations.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:20 pm
From: Willem

Eric Sosman wrote:
) The principal benefits of generic "containers" are, IMHO,
) two. For a complex or intricate container -- the AVL tree
) that every CS student is forced to write and never uses again,
) for example -- writing and debugging the code is enough labor
) that it's worth capturing and re-using. But this consideration
) doesn't apply for an ordinary linked list; it's more work to
) learn the conventions of somebody's function suite than to just
) diddle the links directly.
)
) The other benefit is that a suitable package can "contain"
) data items that are ignorant of their containment. You want to
) put a bunch of `struct tm' instances in a list or a tree or some
) such, fine: The list/tree/whatever package manages the navigation,
) and the `struct tm' is untouched. In particular, the `struct tm'
) can be contained in multiple different containers at the same
) time, with its membership fluctuating as the program runs. But
) if by "internal storage" you mean "one allocation for metadata
) and payload," I don't think this can be made to work.

The third benefit is that when you decide that a linked list isn't
giving enough performance, you can swap in a generic AVL tree or
whatever an hey presto! Instant performance win! You can even
test which kind of generic container implementation gives you the
best oerformance, all with just a single change, because the interface
to all the containers is the same.

I have no idea if this happens in practise, though. I sure have
never seen it happen.

SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:31 pm
From: Ben Pfaff

Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> writes:

> On 4/9/2010 2:57 PM, SG wrote:
>>
>> [...] I also
>> think that "generic containers" (whatever they look like) don't belong
>> into future C standards as part of the library. But that's just my
>> opinion. Still, I _am_ interested in what people can come up with in
>> C and what die-hard C programmers consider to be "elegant" designs of
>> "generic linked lists".
>
> Taking the bait like a true DHCP: I think a generic linked
> list package is about as useful as a generic array package.
> The linked list is so simple a beast that the code to handle it
> isn't complex or difficult enough to bother hiding away behind a
> lot of genericized interfaces. Just stick a `struct node *next'
> element in the data item of your choice and use open code.

I find that the power of generic linked list packages is in
nontrivial operations. Yes, there are some. For example, I
consider ll_splice() and ll_swap_range() below to be in that
category, in that it would take me a few minutes to rewrite them,
and probably a few hours to write an exhaustive unit test. But
I've already done both, so I don't have to do so again.

/* Linked list node. */
struct ll
{
struct ll *next; /* Next node. */
struct ll *prev; /* Previous node. */
};

/* Linked list. */
struct ll_list
{
struct ll null; /* Null node. */
};

/* Returns the node preceding LL in its list,
or the null node if LL is the first node in its list.
(In an empty list, the null node precedes itself.) */
static inline struct ll *
ll_prev (const struct ll *ll)
{
return ll->prev;
}

/* Removes R0...R1 from their current list
and inserts them just before BEFORE. */
void
ll_splice (struct ll *before, struct ll *r0, struct ll *r1)
{
if (before != r0 && r0 != r1)
{
/* Change exclusive range to inclusive. */
r1 = ll_prev (r1);

/* Remove R0...R1 from its list. */
r0->prev->next = r1->next;
r1->next->prev = r0->prev;

/* Insert R0...R1 before BEFORE. */
r0->prev = before->prev;
r1->next = before;
before->prev->next = r0;
before->prev = r1;
}
}

/* Exchanges the positions of A0...A1 and B0...B1,
which may be in the same list or different lists but must not
overlap. */
void
ll_swap_range (struct ll *a0, struct ll *a1, struct ll *b0, struct ll *b1)
{
if (a0 == a1 || a1 == b0)
ll_splice (a0, b0, b1);
else if (b0 == b1 || b1 == a0)
ll_splice (b0, a0, a1);
else
{
struct ll *x0 = ll_prev (a0), *x1 = a1;
struct ll *y0 = ll_prev (b0), *y1 = b1;
a1 = ll_prev (a1);
b1 = ll_prev (b1);
x0->next = b0;
b0->prev = x0;
b1->next = x1;
x1->prev = b1;
y0->next = a0;
a0->prev = y0;
a1->next = y1;
y1->prev = a1;
}
}

--
char a[]="\n .CJacehknorstu";int putchar(int);int main(void){unsigned long b[]
={0x67dffdff,0x9aa9aa6a,0xa77ffda9,0x7da6aa6a,0xa67f6aaa,0xaa9aa9f6,0x11f6},*p
=b,i=24;for(;p+=!*p;*p/=4)switch(0[p]&3)case 0:{return 0;for(p--;i--;i--)case+
2:{i++;if(i)break;else default:continue;if(0)case 1:putchar(a[i&15]);break;}}}

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Personal attacks by moderators in a moderated group are unprofessional
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/fcaffc6b8db42751?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:10 pm
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 7, 2:40 am, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> On 2010-04-06, BruceS <bruce...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gotta side with Mr. Harter on this.  Seebs, with his claimed
> > education, should know better than to keep tripping up such a severely
> > disabled person, but it's still a (somewhat guilty) amusement to watch
> > the poor sad loser keep falling in the mud.  If I weren't amused, I'd
> > simply skip any post by the loon and any reply to same.
> > Shame on you, Seebs.
> > Hey, I didn't say stop!
>
> The last time I poked at his insanity on purpose was waving the word
> "autistic" in front of him to see what he'd do.  Since then, I've just been
> trying to occasionally correct some of the more egregious mishaps and
> misrepresentations.
>
> Not that this helps.  He complained about me allegedly padding my resume;
> I sent a link to the joke resume I wrote up in response to people claiming
> that everyone has to pad their resume.  He responded by apparently thinking
> that:
>
> 1.  I have actually offered that resume as being in some way real, rather
> than a parody based on carefully-chosen literal truths which are funny in
> context.
> 2.  There exist sane people who would ever mistake it for a real resume.

Actually, I believe you have used this as a real resume to get short-
term contracts from people who are too busy to read it all, and if you
think this is a shame, you are exceptionally vain. Your "real" resumes
are stunningly patronizing and I believe that if you lose your current
job, you will have to rewrite them to get a new job. I don't think
you'll find one, since your lack of academic qualifications is
stunning in view of your demand to work at home on high technology.

You can't win an argument, you have with a singular lack of grace or
decency admitted that you let a single poorly-drafted post ruin a
man's reputation for five years until I, as you concede, got on your
fucking ass, you use a word "illucid" which is the root of a verb
meaning the opposite of your plain meaning, you post buggy code all
the time, you have NO academic preparation in computer science, and
you can't moderate. OK, you can play foolish pranks and your employer
lets you work at home, quite possibly because your coworkers can't
stand you.

I am underwhelmed.
>
> (The qualifier is needed because at least one other person did, apparently,
> mistake it for a real resume, but that person's internet search skills were
> so stunningly bad as to really leave me unsurprised.  You can't fix stupid.)

No, Peter, you are stupid. But I wouldn't care save for the fact that
you're also very evil. You've stalked a harmless author for fifteen
years and when you make many more foolish errors here such as posting
your silly off-by-one strlen and crossposting to other groups you
expect a charity which you do not extend to others.

If you persist in this psychotic behavior you may end up in prison. We
can send our compilers to India for testing.

>
> I think the problem is that I have not yet developed a sufficiently
> pessimistic model of the reading comprehension available to Nilges.  As
> a result, I make mistakes like pointing out a joke in the expectation
> that he will comprehend that a joke is usually not considered to be a serious
> representation.  If he couldn't see why the "Apple Computer" thing listed
> on my parody resume is a joke, there's not much I can do to help him.

No, you're a joke. Given your lies here, I naturally assumed that you
would present as an Apple employee and venture capitalist and accept a
job offer based on the hiring person's misunderstanding.

You're lying on your real resume. You did not single-handedly (or at
all) standardize C. Nor do you moderate comp.lang.c, by your own
admission.
>
> -s
> --
> Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.nethttp://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:42 pm
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 7, 6:48 am, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> On 2010-04-06, BruceS <bruce...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The last time you poked at his insanity was most likely your most
> > recent post.  After a few such accidental pokes, the pattern should
> > start becoming clear.
>
> I distinguish between "things done in order to poke at Nilges" and "things
> done for other reasons, despite the fact that they may also have the side
> effect of poking at Nilges".

Replace "poking at" by "stalking and harassing", please, because
that's what you are doing, and it is becoming a police matter. This is
because I raised the issue of your stalking Herb properly and asked
you to get in touch with me by email so we could discuss my concerns
offline, and you responded with stalking and harassing behavior.

>
> > When I first saw your mention of your education, I wondered whether
> > you were prodding him a bit to figure out exactly what his defect is.
> > ISTM that's a bit of a hobby in that field.  You've since given what I
> > would consider a dx, but clearly a partial one.  It's not my field, so
> > I'll keep my guesses to myself.
>
> I wasn't really thinking about it.  He accused us all of having "APd out
> of CS 101".  This struck me as stupid in several ways:

Excuse me, at this time, I don't think you could have passed the
examination. Is the "heap" still a DOS term?
>
> 1.  I did, in fact, do an AP class -- calculus.  I tested out of calc 1

(Sigh) I took calculus, too. It's a great prep for
programming...analog devices. A lot of demand out there...

>   and calc 2 in college, and quite rightly so; I knew the material better
>   than most of the people who took them.  The implied premise that AP
>   classes that actually yield a college credit "don't count" is not
>   supported.

I detect a pattern. You didn't want to go to class and you do not want
to go to work; you took AP tests and you demand in your resume to work
at home.

But reading your Mom's blog, I think I've found out why. I think you
flee "the encounter with the Other". Your Mom dislikes, viscerally,
the idea of being forced down the social scale to the extent of having
to teach or pay taxes for (not sure which) previously all-white
science classes being affirmatively integrated, because this would
make all too real to her the fact of downward, lower middle class
social mobility...just as the Tea Baggers are hopping mad at having an
African American president who is more literate, better educated both
formally and autodidactically, and better spoken than they or, even
more, their children...some of whom are hanging on to data processing
jobs and holding companies to ransom with shibboleth code, whilst
backstabbing their coworkers and stalking computer authors.

> 2.  But I am definitely not an ivory-tower intellectual who learned about
>   programming entirely from an academic standpoint.

No, you're not. But you certainly think in some caricatured ivory
tower ways: you sure as hell can exclude the excluded middle. Since
when is it a choice between being a complete autodidact like you, who
fled the Other in the form of having to be in a class with students
who might (who probably would) laugh at you because of your vanity and
pretense, and being an "ivory tower intellectual who learned about
programming entirely from an academic standpoint"?

You do in fact live in a flimsy and self-built "ivory tower"
constituted by the temporary willingness of companies to put up with
your nonsense in return for finding bugs that wouldn't be present if
the original developers weren't near-slaves.

My Princeton friends went to school in an ivory tower. But those of
them who majored in computer science had to, as a senior project, do
what Wozniak did, that is, architect and construct a real computer and
write its OSen and compilers. I find no such accomplishment on your
resume and this looks really bad given the absence of any educational
preparation.

>
> The totally unsupported allegation was, at the time, sort of a novelty --
> I was not yet used to the way in which Nilges makes up things which, if they
> were true, would make him feel important, and then asserts them without any
> effort at fact-checking or any kind of support.

Whoa, dude. How does the fact that you AP'd out of calculus prove that
you have academic qualifications in computer science?

>
> So I pointed out that it was wrong, because I'm a pedant at heart.  I don't
> really think it's a big deal either way; it amuses me that I ended up not
> doing the academic course path, way back when, but it has no impact to speak
> of on much of anything now.

No, it does. You don't know how to write a structured program. You
can't get a one line strlen working without an off by one bug. You
thought and perhaps still think that "the 'heap' is a DOS term". You
think that "illucid" is a word. And more to the point, you think
stalking is "reasoned criticism".

>
> Now, pointing out that I never finished high school, that may have been
> poking at him.  (And if so, I think it was more recent than the autism
> remark.)  That one's sort of a hobby for me; anyone who pays even a TINY
> bit of attention will realize that it must be some kind of a trap, but
> people who are in a big hurry to rush to condemn me for my alleged flaws
> tend to misinterpret it.  (And I believe Nilges did, in fact, go on to
> claim that I "failed" high school -- a statement I have not made, for
> the most obvious reason.)

It is immaterial how and in what way you are lying now. Did you drop
out because of the minorities hassling you? I.don't.care. The point is
that the ground is giving way beneath your feet. We work six hours a
week in China. We go in to work on working public transportation, and
wouldn't dream of demanding to work from home. If we want to work in
CS we major in CS. We help each other without stalking and without
sniping.

>
> -s
> --
> Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.nethttp://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:57 pm
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 5, 5:05 pm, Qwertyioup <Qwertyi...@none.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 11:32:07 -0700 (PDT), Dr Malcolm McLean
>
> <malcolm.mcle...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >On 4 Apr, 18:02, "io_x" <a...@b.c.invalid> wrote:
> >> [Qwertyioup]
> >> is wrong not offer one escape way, one chance
> >> i say: to live and let to live (expecially people that
> >> are in trouble)
>
> >I agree.
> >Stick to criticisms ofSpinoza1111'sviews on C programming. There's
> >no point bringing up other, off-topic issues that none of us here can
> >possibly be in a position judge.
>
> Well, yes. But how about you address that suggestion to Nilges?
>
> He's the one who keep introducing personal attacks into every topic.
> He's got a library of charges against enemies from his past that he
> throws into posts all the time. I realise that it's hopeless to expect
> him to stop or respond to any request to prove his assertions, but
> every now and then I may put a notice on record that his version of
> events is disputed.
>
> Though what do you really expect to see in a topic titled
> "Personal attacks by moderators in a moderated group are
> unprofessional" but personal smears and flames?
>
> Anyway, with that made clear I hope, I will try to restrain myself
> from further pig wrestling.

This guy is a troll of the first water. Like Harlan Sanders he comes
here to anonymously flame. I've seen him on the ferry, with dull eyes.

He was and possibly is a moderator at the dysfunctional site www.lamma.com.hk
who was offended at the length, literacy, research and civility of my
content when I was made a moderator. He was also offended when I
responded to stalking with artwork...and was invited by a highly
respected Lamma artist and gallery owner to have a one-man show. He
tried to disrupt the show and then started transferring inciting posts
from "fight club" to my zone. I deleted them and complained to the
sysadmin, who has in fact poor literacy in English and didn't
understand the issues, and who inserted a rebuke into my area. I
deleted this as I was deleting all offensive materials, so the
sysadmin flew into a rage and suspended some privileges. I then
decided that being a moderator or even posting at the site was a waste
of time, and left the site (in 2007), never to return.

quertyuiop has long made it his business to stalk and harass me and
may have to reported to the Hong Kong police.

I now will use the word "troll" since Jaron "You Are Not a Gadget" has
satisfactorily come up with a good definition. It's an anonymous
person who posts hatred. Quertyuiop and "Colonel Harlan Sanders" are
both Lanier trolls.

But what Lanier also just dimly perceives is that named people who
seek unfair money and/or power, from Jimmy Wales to Seebach, enable
anonymous Lanier-trolls. It's fear of their vicious attacks which make
lurkers here silent and women like Julienne and blm to chide me for
not being polite...for stirring up trouble.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:13 pm
From: spinoza1111

On Apr 5, 8:14 am, Julienne Walker <happyfro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 4, 5:28 am,spinoza1111<spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 4, 4:22 am, Julienne Walker <happyfro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 3, 2:49 pm,spinoza1111<spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 3, 9:44 pm, Julienne Walker <happyfro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > <snip the usual time vampire of a post from a self important asshole>
>
> > > > > > So that's funny? How about blonde jokes? Women driver jokes?
>
> > > > > If they're good jokes, yes. I'm not so full of myself that I can't
> > > > > appreciate a joke at my expense.
>
> > > > We are beyond joking, kiddo. I think McGraw Hill and Schildt should
> > > > sue Seebach.
>
> > > *I* think you should butt out of their business. It's not your place
> > > to provide unsolicited "self-defense" for others, and I strongly doubt
> > > Schildt would approve of how you're doing it. Fortunately, he has no
> > > need to worry about your dragging his good name through the mud by
> > > bringing up old embarrassments. The chances of anyone who might
> > > escalate the damage reading your posts (and blogs) are vanishingly
> > > small.
>
> > In ways that shall remain confidential, I did check, after getting the
> > wikipedia biography to conform to wikipedia's "biographies of living
> > persons" policies, whether interested parties on the other side of
> > this issue cared either way about my participation. I received their
> > approval.
>
> Bullshit. I can see it one of two ways:
>
> 1) You're a liar and received no such approval. I see this as likely
> because you're prone to throw around names as a way to make yourself
> seem more credible.

Well, darlin' I love you too:

1. I might use the names to establish credibility in a medium where
everyone is so filled with hatred and fear that nobody has any, but
unfortunately I rilly helped Nash with C, I rilly interviewed Peter
Neumann for a real book, Whit Diffie was a coworker and so on.

2. Don't call me a liar. It makes you a liar.
>
> 2) You received positive feedback for the Wikipedia edits and took
> that to mean approval for ALL of your vindictive escapades.

2. Hmm. Do you do that? Because I think you think I'm some sort of
depraved person who would do that, and not learn instead that success
is based on doing one's homework as I did when I asked wikipedia to
remove the real garbage from the Schildt article. Do me the courtesy
of not confusing me with your depraved associates. I mean, if everyone
in your circle is for shit, and if every guy here is filled with
hatred, and every gal with fear and hatred, there's also the exception
that proves the rule.
>
> I'd love to see what Schildt thinks of how you've been championing him
> here on clc. Were I him, I'd rush to send you a cease and desist email.

Solidarity is rare, isn't it? My boss got in trouble for hugging a
laid off co-worker. And I've already addressed in writing this issue,
in a post where I described how Leon Trotsky's dissidence got his
extended family murdered. Stalin killed Trotsky's son: not Trotsky.
And if we can't point out that Seebach is stalking, that Seebach
initiated the campaign with CTCN-3, then anyone, anywhere in the
world, will be able to denounce any one else and depending on his
access to the technical apparatus, will be able to incite a mob.
Delightful world we live in, isn't it. Darlin.

Anyway, this is the moment when the women start screeching, isn't it,
excited at some bestial level by the blood and glass but frightened
that the men will turn on them all the same.

Blood and glass, blood and glass
This is merely what has come to pass.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: In the Matter of Herb Schildt: a Detailed Analysis of "C: The Complete
Nonsense"
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/caf17fab4e7d8530?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:12 pm
From: Eric Sosman

On 4/4/2010 9:13 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> spinoza1111 wrote:
>>
>> I will stop posting and reading until Sunday 11 April China time.
>
> I doubt that very much.

Your doubt was well-founded.

--
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 12:11 pm
From: Seebs

On 2010-04-09, Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> wrote:
> On 4/4/2010 9:13 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> spinoza1111 wrote:
>>> I will stop posting and reading until Sunday 11 April China time.

>> I doubt that very much.

> Your doubt was well-founded.

Yeah. Never assume that something a narcissist says is going to stay true
if it would prevent him from being the center of attention.

FWIW, I unkillfiled him briefly to see if he'd gotten any closer to lucidity.
He hadn't.

I've addressed what tiny fragmentary legitimate criticism there was over the
older version of C:TCN, and I think I've now adequately established that the
4th edition of C:TCR is still badly written, glossing over or ignoring core
functionality, littered with errors, and just plain not a good book from
which to learn C. I think I'm done with this stuff, unless someone has
something really interesting to bring up.

-s
--
Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nospam@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question about void
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/7cda9a8237a38531?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:08 pm
From: sandeep

hello friends

we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++

void x; // gives an error

but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?

thanks.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:16 pm
From: Ian Collins

On 04/10/10 08:08 AM, sandeep wrote:
> hello friends
>
> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>
> void x; // gives an error
>
> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?

What would you store in it?

--
Ian Collins

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:18 pm
From: "osmium"

"sandeep" wrote:

> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>
> void x; // gives an error
>
> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?

How many bytes of memory would the compiler allocate for the void variable?

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:22 pm
From: Kai-Uwe Bux

osmium wrote:

> "sandeep" wrote:
>
>> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>>
>> void x; // gives an error
>>
>> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?
>
> How many bytes of memory would the compiler allocate for the void
> variable?

E.g., 42.

Best

Kai-Uwe Bux

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:24 pm
From: sandeep

enough to be able to dereference any void* of course... if visual basic
can support a Variant type for sure C can as well

osmium writes:
> "sandeep" wrote:
>
>> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>>
>> void x; // gives an error
>>
>> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?
>
> How many bytes of memory would the compiler allocate for the void
> variable?

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:24 pm
From: Eric Sosman

On 4/9/2010 4:08 PM, sandeep wrote:
> hello friends
>
> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>
> void x; // gives an error

I don't know the situation in C++, but in C this is
not a syntax error: All C's grammatical rules are satisfied.
It's still an error, of course, because it violates a
constraint against defining a variable of incomplete type.

> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?

Because `void' is an incomplete type. An "incomplete"
type is one for which the compiler lacks some information.
Without additional declarations, `struct unknown y;' and
`union label z;' have the same problem as `void x;' -- the
compiler doesn't know what they look like internally, and
doesn't know how much space to set aside for them.

Here's a question for you: Suppose you *could* somehow
define a variable as `void x;'. What could you store in it?
What kind of stored value could you retrieve from it? Or to
put it another way, what are you planning to *do* with `x'?

--
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:28 pm
From: Kai-Uwe Bux

Ian Collins wrote:

> On 04/10/10 08:08 AM, sandeep wrote:
>> hello friends
>>
>> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>>
>> void x; // gives an error
>>
>> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?
>
> What would you store in it?

Nothing.

But that we cannot have variables of type void is inconvenient. E.g., if you
have a template

template < typename VertexLabel, typename EdgeLabel >
class graph;

then it makes perfect sense to try

graph< void, double >

for a graph where only the edges carry labels. Today, you have to either
provide 3 partial specializations for the graph<> template (<void,T>,
<T,void>, and <void,void>) or use a special type "empty" instead of void.

Another issue is in the real of meta-programming. It is somewhat feasible to
write a template

template < typename From, typename To >
struct is_convertible {
static bool const value = ...
};

that checks at compile time whether From can be converted to To. Would it
not be nice to use

is_convertible< void, T >::value

to check whether T is default constructible?

Best

Kai-Uwe Bux

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:28 pm
From: Christian Hackl

sandeep ha scritto:

> enough to be able to dereference any void* of course... if visual basic
> can support a Variant type for sure C can as well

Just think of void* as the Variant type of C and C++.

--
Christian Hackl
hacki@sbox.tugraz.at

Milano 2008/2009 -- L'Italia chiamò, sì!

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:29 pm
From: Keith Thompson

sandeep <nospam@nospam.com> writes:
> hello friends
>
> we know the following code is a syntax error in C/C++
>
> void x; // gives an error

Correction: It's a syntax error in C, and it's also a syntax error in
C++. They're two different languages -- closely related, but with
different rules in many cases.

> but my question is WHY we cannot have a void variable?

Why do you want one? What would you do with it? What favor would
the compiler be doing for you by permitting such a declaration?

Ok, that's an indirect answer. The direct answer is two-fold.
First, because the language standard doesn't permit it. Second,
because there's no reason for it to do so, since there's no possible
use for a void variable.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Biographies of Living Persons issue re-opened for Herbert Schildt
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/170bb25b2f0c7a61?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:20 pm
From: James Harris

On 9 Apr, 17:27, spinoza1111 <spinoza1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Since Peter Seebach has no intention of in any way changing his
> behavior, I have taken these actions two days early.
>
> *  I have created a new Biographies of Living Persons issue concerning
> the Schildt article recommending that it be removed, since Schildt is
> not a public figure and the sole source of its Reception section is
> NNPOV.
>
> *  I have emailed a person who has commented at my wordpress blog and
> appears to be Jimmy Wales, requesting that he intervene.

He'll be pleased to hear from you again. ;-)

James

==============================================================================
TOPIC: C: The Complete Nonsense (4th Edition)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/t/c680d289fb50dd06?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:28 pm
From: James Harris

On 9 Apr, 16:40, Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:
> James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com> writes:
> > On 9 Apr, 01:15, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
> > ...
> >>        http://www.seebs.net/c/c_tcn4e.html
> > ...
> >> As always, comments, corrections, and feedback are welcome.
> [...]
> > A clickable table of contents would be helpful, something like
>
> >  http://codewiki.wikispaces.com/bit_count_fast.c
>
> > I read your page as a block of text but some navigation aids or visual
> > clues to delimit sections and subsections would be useful for looking
> > back. The current header sizes are a clue but only a small one.
>
> It does have a clickable table of contents; scroll down about a page
> from the top to the "Contents:" section.

My bad. I was thinking about something more detailed - for example,
under the Pick-a-Page section clickable links to the page numbers; and
under the Higher-Level Problems heading a clickable entry for each
problem. My only complaint is that with no indentation the document is
a bit monolithic.

James

==============================================================================

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