twitter: rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 12 topics

rec.crafts.metalworking
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

rec.crafts.metalworking@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/57c9c3facffdfb67?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 11:46 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"Steve W." wrote:
>
> Larry Jaques wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
> > <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> scrawled the following:
> >
> >> Gunner Asch wrote:
> >
> > --snip of answer to question I asked earlier--
> >
> >
> >>> Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
> >>> power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
> >>> down.
> >>> If not..he might simply kill you.
> >>>
> >>> Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World
> >>>
> >>> Gunner
> >>> 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
> >>> 357 Mag with 125gr JHP
> >>> .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres
> >> My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
> >> Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.
> >
> > Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
> > should buy some real ammo some time, huh?
> >
> > I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
> > in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
> > the first shot, or make our first shot count.
> >
> > So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
> > Good show, Pete. ;)
> >
> > --
> > Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
> > -- Earl Warren
>
> One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp...
>
> Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
> cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
> bit better for the ME to clean up.

Then use a M72. ;-)

--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 12:18 am
From: "Don Foreman"

"Gunner Asch" <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mgu0r5lbvc6a6o2rikag9crf0ifmva6pun@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >Ignoramus11443 wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
>>> >> it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?
>>> >>
>>> >> i
>>> >
>>> >I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
>>> >friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
>>> >and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
>>> >for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
>>> >difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
>>> >one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
>>> >with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
>>> >lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would
>>> >expect
>>> >with the lower weight / mass.
>>>
>>> High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
>>> you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
>>> better tool?
>>
>>Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
>>possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.
>
> Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
> situation...2.5 <G>
>
> Average range, 7 yrds
>
> I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
> actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
> said of the 9mm
>
> Gunner

That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either. The probability of a one-shot
stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty.
Shot placement is far more important
than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the
shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot
from a .22 rimfire.

A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one
of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that
will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger
ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that
damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher
velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not
deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must
impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant
shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with
drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain.

Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the
marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress
sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's
no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low
light, stoked with adrenaline.

Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely
to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but
I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head
at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged
scared-shitless short-range activity, not a military activity done by young
men in a high state of training.
I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the
individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak,
liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy
in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the
effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle.

Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a
9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo.

A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds
fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability
of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for
doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes,
accurately delivered to drop the assailant.

That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a
.45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a
.45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to
pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor
in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought
I shot it respectably.
I don't even pack a .380 most days.

We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin'
that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 2:57 am
From: Wes

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo
>
>It's unlikely that more than a handful of tea people even know who Janeane
>Garofalo is, Wes. She doesn't play in the kinds of venues you're expect them
>to attend. And there's no way she would use a term as a homophobic slur, and
>expect it to be taken as a put-down. That just isn't her.

You know what a double entendre is.

I've seen more of her than I'd really like. One of the risks of having your dvr record
the daily show and colbert and stay on channel.

The TV is on at night to help mask the tinnitus.

Wes

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:40 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:40:41 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
>> <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>> --snip of answer to question I asked earlier--
>>
>>
>>>> Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
>>>> power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
>>>> down.
>>>> If not..he might simply kill you.
>>>>
>>>> Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World
>>>>
>>>> Gunner
>>>> 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
>>>> 357 Mag with 125gr JHP
>>>> .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres
>>> My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
>>> Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.
>>
>> Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
>> should buy some real ammo some time, huh?
>>
>> I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
>> in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
>> the first shot, or make our first shot count.
>>
>> So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
>> Good show, Pete. ;)
>>
>> --
>> Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
>> -- Earl Warren
>
>One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp...

Pretty much. Though I did see a guy get hit in the head with a .45
hardball. It hit just above the hairline and bounced straight up.
Knocked his dick in the dirt however. He lived with no complications.

Crom was smiling on him.

>
>Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
>cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
>bit better for the ME to clean up.

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:48 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:18:27 -0500, "Don Foreman"
<dforemanNOSPAM@goldengate.net> wrote:

>
>"Gunner Asch" <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:mgu0r5lbvc6a6o2rikag9crf0ifmva6pun@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >Ignoramus11443 wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
>>>> >> it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> i
>>>> >
>>>> >I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
>>>> >friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
>>>> >and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
>>>> >for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
>>>> >difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
>>>> >one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
>>>> >with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
>>>> >lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would
>>>> >expect
>>>> >with the lower weight / mass.
>>>>
>>>> High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
>>>> you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
>>>> better tool?
>>>
>>>Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
>>>possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.
>>
>> Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
>> situation...2.5 <G>
>>
>> Average range, 7 yrds
>>
>> I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
>> actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
>> said of the 9mm
>>
>> Gunner
>
>That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either.

It can, 98% of the time...but only 61% of the time with a 9mikemike.

The probability of a one-shot
>stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty.
>Shot placement is far more important
>than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the
>shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot
>from a .22 rimfire.
>
>A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one
>of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that
>will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger
>ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that
>damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher
>velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not
>deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must
>impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant
>shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with
>drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain.

Indeed. Though packing a shotgun in a shoulder rig is problematic.
>
>Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the
>marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress
>sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's
>no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low
>light, stoked with adrenaline.

As I told Pete C. Though center of mass is relatively easy based on my
experience with amatures who had to shoot in self defense.
>
>Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely
>to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but
>I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head
>at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged
>scared-shitless short-range activity, not a military activity done by young
>men in a high state of training.
>I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the
>individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak,
>liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy
>in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the
>effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle.
>
>Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a
>9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo.
>
Occasional shooters? Oh..you mean people who shouldnt be carrying a
deadly weapon?

>A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds
>fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability
>of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for
>doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes,
>accurately delivered to drop the assailant.

The problem with that is..he may not let you shoot him a bunch of times
before he crushes your skull with a rock.
>
>That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a
>.45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a
>.45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to
>pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor
>in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought
>I shot it respectably.
>I don't even pack a .380 most days.
>
>We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin'
>that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others.

True enough.

You stick to the mouse guns and Ill stick to the man stoppers I dont
have to shoot a guy 9 times with.

Deal?

Gunner

>
>
>
>
>

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:05 am
From: "Pete C."

Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Ignoramus11443 wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
> >> >> >> >> >> it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> i
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
> >> >> >> >> >friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
> >> >> >> >> >and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
> >> >> >> >> >for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
> >> >> >> >> >difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
> >> >> >> >> >one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
> >> >> >> >> >with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
> >> >> >> >> >lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
> >> >> >> >> >with the lower weight / mass.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
> >> >> >> >> you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
> >> >> >> >> better tool?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
> >> >> >> >possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
> >> >> >> situation...2.5 <G>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Average range, 7 yrds
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
> >> >> >> actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
> >> >> >> said of the 9mm
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
> >> >> >with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
> >> >> >with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
> >> >> >vs. Dodge.
> >> >>
> >> >> the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.
> >> >>
> >> >> However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
> >> >> http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15
> >> >> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
> >> >>
> >> >> You may wish to study this chart....
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> and review these articles....
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
> >> >> power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
> >> >> down.
> >> >> If not..he might simply kill you.
> >> >>
> >> >> Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World
> >> >>
> >> >> Gunner
> >> >> 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
> >> >> 357 Mag with 125gr JHP
> >> >> .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres
> >> >
> >> >My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
> >> >Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.
> >>
> >> If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are
> >> going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you.
> >>
> >> I hope you survive.
> >
> >I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to
> >make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to
> >ensure the desired effect BA or no.
>
> Then you run with a much different crowd than the average person does.
> In that case, a decent battle rifle would be appropriate.
>
> Few street shootings involve bad guys wearing armor.
>
> Skull shots are good, if you can reliably do them while they are
> shooting at you and your heart is going 250mph.
>
> Been thered, done that. Shrug.

I just focus on what will have the highest probability of the desired
effect.

> >
> >>
> >> Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38
> >> Special.
> >>
> >> Just a heads up.
> >
> >The Rangers are NATO.
>
> Which Rangers?

Winchester.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 6:08 am
From: Larry Jaques

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
<aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> scrawled the following:

>The Rangers are NATO.

But are they UN approved? <dg&r>

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 6:19 am
From: Larry Jaques

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:40:41 -0400, the infamous "Steve W."
<csr684@NOTyahoo.com> scrawled the following:

One stop is good enough for me.

>Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
>cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
>bit better for the ME to clean up.

Kinda "pink misty", like a Barrett .50 BMG round, huh?

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 6:28 am
From: Larry Jaques

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:59:48 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
<gunnerasch@gmail.com> scrawled the following:

>On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:55:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
><ljaques@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
>><gunnerasch@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
>>
>>>On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
>>><ljaques@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
>>>>>>possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>>Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
>>>>>situation...2.5 <G>
>>>>>
>>>>>Average range, 7 yrds
>>>>>
>>>>>I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
>>>>>actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
>>>>>said of the 9mm
>>>>
>>>>And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off?
>>>
>>>.2 seconds for the average shooter.
>>
>>Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger. ;)
>>Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. <evil grinne>
>>
>>
>>>I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5'
>>>apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition
>>>shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much.
>>>
>>>Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much
>>>much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5
>>>seconds
>>
>>Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in
>>your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly,
>>but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
>
>The average bad guy only kills 20% of the people he actually shoots.

Good!

>The average good guy does much better.

Much better news!

>>Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that.
>\
>Which stats are you looking for?

You answered it handily with your post full of links to Pete
yesterday. I was looking for stopping power by caliber charts.
Interestingly enough, some of the one-stop stats for the Golden Sabers
are low. 9mm CorBon +P = 91%, 9mm Rem Golden Saber +P = 83%.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT What's your take? OT
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/90f2ae9b8081ec29?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 1:27 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

Ed Huntress wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> news:o5CdnTxrUNF1qyzWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "John Martin" <jmartin957@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>
news:87f20c04-4bfd-406c-a7b6-ca230efed67c@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Mar 19, 9:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>> Yes, TV is about to erupt in warring Palin-clan docu-series. Life
>> could not
>> get better.
>>
>> "If I could wave my magic wand I would want it to premiere at the
>> exact same
>> hour, minute, and second as Sarah Palin's does," Stuart Krasnow, the
>> executive producer of Levi's series, told The TV Column.
>>
>> Levi's show, tentatively titled "Levi Johnston's Final Frontier," is
>> " 'Jersey Shore' on ice," Krasnow said.
>>
>>
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/tvblog/2010/03/levi-johnston-pitches-antidote.html?hpid=artslot
>
> Gee. Fireworks. I *love* fireworks. <g>

I wonder if we'll learn which has the bigger schwantz?

--
John R. Carroll

==============================================================================
TOPIC: If George Bush........
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/ee503716cb3ad0d5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 1:30 am
From: "John R. Carroll"

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> In article <he-dnUklAbm3zizWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>> Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>> In article <ecWdnSU3bOq6zSzWnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>>>> In article <9K9sn.149896$rq1.89996@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
>>>>> Wes <clutch@lycos.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nunya@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>>>
>> Sort of.
>> Even back in the day a convicted felon was generally not waived.
>> Nipped in the bud is one thing. That isn't what we are seeing at
>> present.
>
> Well. I recall some pretty bad ones, but yes the authorities were
> trying to nip it in the bud. And it more often than not worked.

Had to laugh a little at that one.
Basic has a way of sorting out big shooters.
LOL

--
John R. Carroll

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Has Winston posted recently?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/fd47723ebe9c5537?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 2:41 am
From: Wes

Winston <Winston@bigbrother.net> wrote:

>Anything in particular, Wes? I'm generous to people who call me a 'gent'.

No, nothing in particular, it just struck me that I hadn't seen you posting recently.
Guess I was looking at the wrong threads.

Wes

==============================================================================
TOPIC: about precise cutting on stainless tubing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/80ef83a751eba1b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:14 am
From: Carl

On Mar 30, 1:39 am, jc <yoshidesi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, all
> I 'd like to know who does precise cutting like 0.040 thickness from
> 3" OD {A} x 2.870" ID {B} x .065" {C} Wall Tube 304 Stainless Steel,
> Annealed with reasonable cost.
> I got quote(300 pieces) from one company they charge $10 each.That is
> too much while 12" pieces are that price right?
>
> I need it about 300 pieces of that size.Or if you know ready made that
> king ring similar size...
> I'd be very appreciated if anybody has any suggestion.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Yoshi.

Yoshi

More info is needed:
1) tolerance is everything, what is your tolerance on the .040
dimension for thickness and variation.
2) what kind of surface finish do you need
3) seamless, or welded tube, my quick price check says that welded is
$25 per foot and seamless $ in small quantities
4) do you want it cut from annealed tube or annealed after cutting,
stainless tends to work harden when cut.

CarlBoyd

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:44 am
From: Bob Engelhardt

Carl wrote:
> On Mar 30, 1:39 am, jc <yoshidesi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, all
>> I 'd like to know who does precise cutting ...

> More info is needed:
> 1) tolerance is everything, what is your tolerance on the .040
> dimension for thickness and variation.
...

And ... what is your tolerance on length. What do you mean by
"precise"? Bob

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT -- off grid power systems
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/284c9711ef5c39e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:29 am
From: Joseph Gwinn

In article <6Edsn.289963$Hq1.272017@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com>,
"Martin H. Eastburn" <lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:

> And NiCads have memory.

Caused by widespread misunderstanding of how to handle them in a circuit design.

See the ³Video Battery Handbook² from Anton Bauer:
<http://www.antonbauer.com/Downloads>.

Joe Gwinn

> Martin
>
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 12:31 am, sta...@prolynx.com wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Wonder if Edison cells would have a market these days? Railroads used
> >> them in a lot of high-reliabiity, low-maintenance roles.
> >>
> >> Stan
> >
> > Nickel-iron cells are available, but look at the price:
> > http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=artic
> > le&id=44&Itemid=129
> > I can buy deep-discharge lead acid batteries for <1/10 of that.
> >
> > NiCads are too hazardous for DIY construction.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_poisoning
> >
> > jsw

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:35 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Mar 29, 10:58 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:
>
> > And NiCads have memory.
>
> Only when their charging is abused. This belief came from early
> failures aboard satellites and was traced to the very controlled
> charge/discharge cycles which damaged the cells.

They charged when the spacecraft was in sunlight and discharged when
it passed through Earth's shadow, so the cycle was exactly the same
for each orbit. Memory is difficult to recreate in the lab.

jsw

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 6:04 am
From: Larry Jaques

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:29:19 -0400, the infamous Joseph Gwinn
<joegwinn@comcast.net> scrawled the following:

>In article <6Edsn.289963$Hq1.272017@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com>,
> "Martin H. Eastburn" <lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
>> And NiCads have memory.
>
>Caused by widespread misunderstanding of how to handle them in a circuit design.
>
>See the �Video Battery Handbook� from Anton Bauer:
><http://www.antonbauer.com/Downloads>.

That link flaked on me (defaulted to 'choose country' map) but I was
able to find the ebook. Good one, Joe.

The Dionic 160 warning was eye-opening, too. Our gov't, in its
ultimate wisdom, can forbid the boarding of a plane with those
dangerous, exploding lithium type batteries unless specific rules are
followed to the letter. From the DOT manual:

"All batteries, wet, dry, nonspillable, and lithium, must be securely
packaged with the equipment in such a way that prevents the dangerous
evolution of heat and protects against short circuits, or the
batteries must be properly installed in the equipment.
Properly cushion items to prevent shifting.
The equipment must be designed, packaged, and be in proper condition
so that no dangerous evolution of heat, fumes, gases, or fire will
result. Leave devices in the �off� position. The device may not
operate on its own or short circuit the battery in it. This can be
achieved by engaging a trigger lock or disabling the power button/
switch. Batteries may not be recharged during transportation.
Batteries packed in equipment may not exceed certain weight limits:
Lithium batteries in equipment: 5kg net (passenger air/rail), 35kg net
(cargo air)
Lithium batteries packed with equipment: 5kg net (passenger air/rail),
35kg gross (cargo air)
Wet batteries: 30kg gross (passenger air/rail), no limit by cargo air
Dry batteries and Nonspillable batteries: no limit
Important sections pertaining to batteries installed in and packaged
with equipment:
�� 172.102, (Special Provisions 134, 157, 188, 189, A101, A103, and
A104),
173.185(b) and (c ), and 173.220(d)."

Note the requirement of a TRIGGER LOCK. Are these f**ks paranoid, or
what?

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

==============================================================================
TOPIC: So Much For 'Energy Star' Ratings
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/5403aac4554cfb17?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:43 am
From: "Wild_Bill"

The DOE energy ratings may have meant something initially, but they don't
seem
to be worthwhile anymore. The DOE isn't a consumer product testing agency,
so there probably isn't any data that's related to real-life applications.
In the end, the consumers are the ones expected to do the actual testing (as
with most products today).

I realized that ES energy star ratings for new windows was very poor when I
was looking a the acceptable air leakage specifications found at the DOE
website about 12 years ago.

The permissable amount of air leakage for new windows was very bad, IMO. The
acceptable amount of leakage for 1 common sized window was enough leakage to
allow all of the interior air to be exchanged in a 12x12x8' room in about 8
hours, IIRC (when weather conditions were a little windy). I'm not sure now,
about the amount of time required for the complete exchange to take place,
but it was a somewhat alarming rate, considering that many rooms have more
than 1 window (or more than 1 large window).

Most likely, the air leakage is based on design data submitted by the window
manufacturer, and any manufacturing defects, improper installation or design
changes could lead to even more alarming leakage levels.
Certainly, most windows will likely leak more air after they've been used
(worn seals, improper alignment of seals, etc).

The ES ratings generally exploit the public's ignorance of basic science
(about 7th grade science), but this is true for many ratings.. horsepower
ratings, for example.
Most consumers can't actually measure a window's air leakage, or many of the
other values/specs printed in manufacturers' literature or ratings numbers.

Leakage and air infiltration of windows are significant factors in energy
usage, or more accurately as energy wasting.

--
WB
.........

"Erik" <spam@this.com> wrote in message
news:spam-3B4617.17213927032010@news.dslextreme.com...
> Always had a feeling 'Energy Star' ratings were a mostly bogus hype...
> looks like I was right.
>
> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/03/26/2322208
>
> Erik

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:44 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Mar 30, 7:43 am, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wildb...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> > Always had a feeling 'Energy Star' ratings were a mostly bogus hype...
> > looks like I was right....

I'm waiting for the same expose of "green" and "organic".
The media was rather quiet about the connection between E. Coli,
Salmonella and organic fertilizer.

jsw
who cooks everything thoroughly

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:55 am
From: Jim Wilkins

On Mar 30, 7:43 am, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wildb...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> Leakage and air infiltration of windows are significant factors in energy
> usage, or more accurately as energy wasting.

Air infiltration is a compromise between energy loss and "proper"
ventilation:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-change-rate-room-d_867.html

Like police vs fire recommendations for ease of access they conflict
wildly.

jsw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Getting rid of my rotary table and dividing head
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/25df1dd6b6e2380c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:49 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 23:42:05 -0500, Ignoramus9410
<ignoramus9410@NOSPAM.9410.invalid> wrote:

>On 2010-03-30, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:08:19 -0500, Ignoramus9410
>><ignoramus9410@NOSPAM.9410.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2010-03-29, Karl Townsend <karltownsend.NOT@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> > How is the indexer more useful than a rotary table or dividing head on
>>>>>> > a
>>>>>> > manual machine? A few cranks on the RT or DH does exactly the same
>>>>>> > thing
>>>>>> > as a few button presses on the indexer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the number of points that I need has no common denominator with the
>>>>>> number of holes in a circle on dividing head, multiplied by 40, I am
>>>>>> pretty screwed. Not so with the indexer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i
>>>>>
>>>>> They have multiple circles of holes and multiple plates for a reason. I
>>>>> can't see any reasonable application the DH wouldn't work for, and the
>>>>> RT is easily set to any degree just like the indexer.
>>>>
>>>> Iggy, you don't use the hole plate on a DH when in CNC mode. You can move
>>>> any amount you want, even while the other axis are moving. You can even set
>>>> your DH at the helix angle and hob gears with a blank in the DH and a hob in
>>>> the spindle., both moving in coordinated motion. The RT is handy for a huge
>>>> part bolted to a face plate. Again, you can do any full 4rth axis work you
>>>> can dream up.
>>>>
>>>> Now, this route is not for a high production shop. But you can make some
>>>> wonderfully complex parts with just these tools.
>>>
>>>Karl, as it happens, I already sold both the dividing head as well as
>>>the rotary table, though technically they are still at my place. In
>>>any case, I have a chuck for this indexer, so I can hold decent sized
>>>parts. I hope that ine day I could make a stepper control for it, and
>>>will not deal with backlash, as on a rotary table.
>>>
>>>If I ever need a rotary table, every third bankrupt mold shop has a
>>>Troyke DMT-15, and with a bit of patience I can get one inexpensively
>>>again.
>>>
>>>i
>> Mine cost me $5
>
>That's good.
>
>This one cost me $105, IIRC.
>
>i
Bummer.

Though I had to fix mine.

Took me 20 minutes.

Gunner

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hardwood Flooring
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/68660c4f6d11e53c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 4:50 am
From: "Joe AutoDrill"

> I'll bet the OP did not get that many replies in the woodworking NG <G>

You are incorrect.

Here are the official statistics as of right now, 7:49 AM, EST.

17 from a global motorcycle riding group I'm a part of that fields general
life questions at times... Go figure.

29 from this group.

49 from the woodworking group (rec.woodworking if it matters)

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Republican Right Wingers Homeland Security Threats
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/8f014bc31ddd3892?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:11 am
From: Klaus Schadenfreude

How now, wool-sack Too_Many_Tools muttered in talk.politics.guns:
]
>
> Republicans/Teabaggers are a threat to national security and will be
> dealt with as such.

Snicker. They'll be waiting for you to knock on the door.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MT6 to MT5 or less
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/29cb78dc1c67698b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 5:54 am
From: "Joe AutoDrill"

Morse taper adapter quest....

Anyone out there have a MT6 to MT5, MT4, MT3 or even an MT2 adapter they
would want to part with?

McMaster has #6 to #5 and #4...

MSC has them too...

But if someone has this semi-rare bird and wanted to sell it at a decent
price, I would consider purchasing it from a friend rather than brand new,
etc.

V8013-R

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do razor blades get dull so fast?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/t/d0ab1ef54b638ce4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 30 2010 6:10 am
From: mike

Winston wrote:
> On 3/29/2010 4:33 AM, mike wrote:

> > Ha, another reason I should get me one of those cleaners, thanks!
>
> Shore. My Branson B200 still works well after about a decade.
> See eBay 360242033356 for example.

I had a look, also did a froogle-google search, I hadn't realized the
prices were becoming so affordable.

Just wondering , is the capacity, both volume and wattage, suitable
for most anything you've wanted to use it for?

Any caveats on what brands to avoid? I see HF Tools has a 2.5
liter one on sale for $80, which I think has been discussed here
before, I wonder if anyone has used it, and is
there any good reason to go with a bigger capacity such as
that one (item 95563), or a good reason to steer clear of it
rather than become the 'product tester' myself: or, is that
much more volume overkill - I know, I know, that's one of those ?'s
that may warrant an answer such as 'well, it depends...', just
thought I'd ask ...)

>
> I just plop in the razor after shaving and press the 'go' button.
> It shuts itself off in a couple minutes. I just rinse the tank
> and refill every week or so.
> I don't even add any 'cleaner solution'.
>
> Easy peasy.

Definitely sounds like a handy thing to have around.
>
> --Winston

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rec.crafts.metalworking"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rec.crafts.metalworking+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

twitter

Tuesday, March 30, 2010

rec.crafts.metalworking - 25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

0 Comments:

Post a Comment

About Me

Previous Posts